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View Diary: Bill Richardson-Colin Powell-Joe Biden Target of NSA Spying (203 comments)

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  •  It's not simply partisan. (4.00)
    I think it has more to do with the fact that Cheney is in charge of the 'real' government, a shadow government that is pulling the strings behind the scenes for everything that really counts (such as the PNAC project that may lead to war with Iran, Syria, and perhaps China). The spying is on the nodes of government, the careerists who are supposedly running things, to keep them in line, or to retaliate and force them into early retirement if they don't follow Cheney's plan. The NSA spying is the way that the shadow government secretly keeps tabs on the real government without showing its hand by nosing into areas where they may not have proper clearance and a 'need to know', which would arouse suspicion.

    The War on Terror is terrorism

    by Halcyon on Tue Dec 27, 2005 at 09:51:46 AM PST

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    •  Maybe you are right, but I don't really buy (4.00)
      into the "secret government" thing mostly because I have grown up in DC and not much is all that secret here.  My central point was that FISA would not have granted a warrant to search and sieze for a politician like Biden unless he was doing something that the Bush Administration could prove was wrong.  It is really unthinkable that Biden is doing anything that could even remotely be considered traitorous or in league with a terrorist organization.  Furthermore, if they went to the court with someone like Biden's name on the warrant request, the court would certainly take note and ask serious questions like "Why don't you just ask him to tell you about his conversations with the Iranians and request any documentation he might have?"  Because they like me would presume that Biden would be on "our side" meaning America's side and would probably cooperate with that kind of request.  They would look at it in a non-partisan way as American public servants - not dems, inds, reps etc...

      I think it is defnitely partisan in nature though because the bottom line absent any proveable or even speculative evidence that Biden is involved in terrorist activities then BushCo had no other motivation to secretly spy other than politics.

      It isn't about "secret governments" it is about the one we all know about and who is on their "enemies" list.

      •  I was referencing Wilkerson's 'cabal' (4.00)
        He described how the real decisions were being made by Cheney, Rumsfeld and Wolfowitz, without going through the proper State Department channels. Bolton is their enforcer.

        I'm sure there was political spying too, for blackmail and also on their own to keep them in the fold. They don't trust anyone, and they lie, lie, lie, and would expect others to lie. So they spy on everyone 'because they can.'

        The War on Terror is terrorism

        by Halcyon on Tue Dec 27, 2005 at 03:09:16 PM PST

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        •  And because they are the embodiment (4.00)
          of utter paranioa.

          But I now understand what you are referencing.  I misunderstood your post to be more of an "X Files" scenario than the Cheney thing.  Although, over these years I have come to believe that Bush is no mere puppet.  Frankly, my exposure to the Cheney family over these many years made me far more concerned about his rise to the White House than Bush.  But now I have come to believe that both are very dangerous and destructive people - they just have slightly different styles in how they execute their common plan.

          •  I'm just bothered by reading diaries like this (none)
            where statements like:
            may have been subject...
            likely ended up in the possession of...
            Possible affected individuals include...

            are what the diary hinges on. Theere's a lot going on so I've got a lot of reading to do and I'd at least like to see someone in a position to know make a claim of fact, not all this "maybe" stuff.

            -6.88/-5.64 * 2005 AD, final score, Internet 1, Corporate America 0

            by John West on Wed Dec 28, 2005 at 03:50:21 AM PST

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            •  I think there are plenty of shocking facts (none)
              about this administration.  There are some people who are speculating about how those facts add up who actually know a little bit (or a lot) about how our government works and there are others who don't really know much about how the system works who sort of make up narratives that seem plausible in the context of their own lives.  I've no idea whether you are "sick" of my comments, but I do have experience working in government and grew up on Capitol Hill while my Dad spent his time investigating Nixon & Watergate, so I know a little bit about the origins of the FISA court and a little bit about the principles at stake.  

              The reality is that the facts that we have so far - the fact that the President and his cronies have been spying illegally on American citizens - that fact and others in the story are damning enough for them.  The question now is what kind of dammage have they been able to level against not only our democracy as a whole, but also against individuals and groups of Americans.  That question is critical.  If we don't figure the answers to that question out, we will not be able to right the wrongs.  People will claim "no harm no foul", but they will be proven wrong at some point.  The biggest problem is that it could take years or decades (depending on the outcomes of elections) to figure it out.

              •  I agree with much of what you are saying. (none)
                I'm hardly "sick" of your comments, they're good. And I speculate as much as anyone. I just see a flurry of speculation here that everyone is already making. Perhaps I need to take a break from diary reading for a while. I'm getting over saturated. Not your fault.

                -6.88/-5.64 * 2005 AD, final score, Internet 1, Corporate America 0

                by John West on Wed Dec 28, 2005 at 07:07:16 AM PST

                [ Parent ]

                •  I understand and I wouldn't really take it (none)
                  personally if you had said mine were part of the problem because I relate to the feeling of overload with this stuff.  I get a little irritable when I see the more glib and sensationalistic "gottcha" stuff here because I can't get over the gravity of the situation and I think a lot of people even here don't really get how serious and dangerous this stuff is.  Sometimes it gets to feel like the challenges and crimes get abstracted to the point where it is all cartoonish which I don't think is very helpful.  

                  I am grateful when I see diaries that are able to evenly and reasonably put the dangers into a context though.  dKos is getting so big that the flashier stuff is unfortunately getting more attention.  Lately, I've been thinking as I scan the diary titles on the recommended list that there must be a lot of New York Post fans at this site these days and then I find a real gem - often on the list that will sroll into oblivion and I'm glad I took the time to dig deeper.  


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