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View Diary: Are Democrats stupid, or just corrupt? (200 comments)

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  •  When did Daily Kos become... (4.00)
    the kind of place where someone could virtually COUNT on being lambasted for airing his legitimate grievances against the Democratic Party in a rant?

    The dude is angry. So am I. So are a lot of people. Every damned time something like this happens (and that's a lotta damned times), those of us who have the temerity to speak our minds (without censoring the emotional, vicious rhetoric that comes so EASILY when speaking of the actions of the people who supposedly represent us) are virtually ASSURED to be dressed down for doing so.

    Just what the fuck IS okay for someone to say with respect to one's disappointment and feelings of betrayal by the Democrats in Congress? Please, give me a fucking LIST.

    •  Since some (none)
      have decided they and only they are the mouthpiece of the Democratic party.  Too bad they are wrong.
    •  Post It In Public, and You Have No Right... (4.00)
      ...to expect only silence or fawning praise.  

      The revolution will not be televised, but we'll analyze it to death at The Next Hurrah.

      by Dana Houle on Fri Jan 13, 2006 at 05:54:57 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  Huh? (1.50)
        What the HELL are you talking about?

        Frankly, I don't give a shit about troll ratings and idiotic objections.

        Did any of you naysayers read beyond the headline?  Care to respond to any of my legitimate points, or would you rather continue to defend your abusive spouse?

        In every stage of these Oppressions...: Our repeated Petitions have been answered only by repeated Injury." DoI, TJ

        by ChuckLin on Fri Jan 13, 2006 at 06:21:59 PM PST

        [ Parent ]

        •  Your point on Afghanistan wasn't legitimate (4.00)
          You disagree with 90% of America who supported that invasion.

          That's your problem, not the Democratic party's.  They can't cater to fringe elements who spew pro-Taliban talking points.

          •  hmm (4.00)
            disagreeing with 90% of America doesn't make one's opinion illegitimate. Sorry.

            I get that you're pissed about this guy, but you know, I don't see a whole lot of "I just love the Taliban!" floating around in his diary. Sorry. I had qualms about afghanistan, too, though I didn't outright oppose it -- but there's no war that should be gotten into without some fretting over it, IMO.

    •  And You Imply... (4.00)
      ...that it's ok to you and him to express your anger, but not to express mine.  Why is yours any better or more virtuous or protected than mine?

      The revolution will not be televised, but we'll analyze it to death at The Next Hurrah.

      by Dana Houle on Fri Jan 13, 2006 at 05:56:25 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  perhaps because (none)
        he articulated it in a diary, while you express it somewhat indiscriminately authored by other writers.
      •  Not true. (3.87)
        It seems in virtually every single discussion inspired by a diary expressing disgust or disappointment with the Democrats, there is a contingent of people who seem to believe that such dissent must be slapped down as quickly and decisively as possible. As if to say, "If you criticise the Democrats, you deserve to be attacked as an idiot or radical wacko; after all, they ARE the lesser of two evils."

        Well, goddamnit, some of us are sick to fucking death of evil, period. And since TOEING the party line doesn't seem to get us any less grief than NOT toeing it (see Nader voters), we're doing the math, here, and beginning to see that, while sticking by the Dems has perhaps SLOWED our descent into the abyss of irrelevance and torment, it isn't STOPPING it, and the descent remains inevitable and inexorable, at this point.

        By god, I have done almost a 180 degree shift since 2004. Pragmatism sucks ASS. The lesser of two evils is STILL EVIL. Yeah, we get less of it -- but whether one dies quickly by eating a giant dose of arsenic, or slowly by having it sprinkledon one's powdered sugar doughnuts each morning (hat tip VC Andrews), death remains the result.

        I guess I'm just really fucking sick and tired of people not being allowed to have their feelings and express them around here without being immediately slapped down as unworthy of respect. And I'm NOT talking about myself.

        •  This Isn't "Toeing a Party Line" (2.50)
          I have a hard time hearing complaints about "the Democrats" by people who've never toed any Democratic line in that they just carp from the sidelines instead of actually get involved.  

          Just out of curiosity, have you acted on your disgust and gotten involved in the Democratic party?

          The revolution will not be televised, but we'll analyze it to death at The Next Hurrah.

          by Dana Houle on Fri Jan 13, 2006 at 06:10:28 PM PST

          [ Parent ]

          •  Are you KIDDING me? (4.00)
            Okay. Maybe you're not kidding. Maybe not EVERYONE memorized every word I wrote for the past two years... : )

            Um, yeah. I'm involved. And it's infuriating on SO MANY levels. You think a flame war here is bad? Yeeesh -- try a goddamned local Democrats meet-up. (DKos/MLW Meet-ups, on the other hand, are lovely.)

            Yes, is the short answer. For the long answer, I'm pretty sure I wrote my reflections on the miasma that is local Democratic politics (at least 'round these parts).

            •  Then Why Do You Countenance... (4.00)
              ...people spreading lies--and that's what this diary is full of--and character attacks against Democrats, tearing down what you're trying to build up?

              Hopscotch just below nails it.  There are plenty of things to complain about, and questions to raise about various Democrats or Dem organizations.  But venomous diaries like this are bullshit.  

              Everyone has a right to express their opinions without the government intervening.  But this is a Democratic blog, and it's a public space, and nobody has a right to assail me and an institution I work to improve without expecting a return volley.  

              You mention the flaming at your meeting.  (Try a building trades union meeting sometime; it will melt your eyebrows.)  Think of it like a family argument.  Us Dems can go back and forth.  But people who don't do a damn thing are, in terms of talking about Democrats, outsiders.  They can say they don't like Democrats, and I don't expect them to become one and change things.  But those people are essentially Republicans, or people that do nothing to stop Republicans.  

              The revolution will not be televised, but we'll analyze it to death at The Next Hurrah.

              by Dana Houle on Fri Jan 13, 2006 at 06:24:11 PM PST

              [ Parent ]

          •  I think she is (none)
            complaining about this seemingly orchestrated attempt to quell dissent debate the moment it surfaces on this blog.  I find it quite healthy.  Otherwise, we end up with what we Russians call byt, which is a mephitic mass of congrealed oil and grease that suffocates everything it coats as it expands and expands in its relentless attempt to reduce the world to a deadening embrace of the same.  This is why dissent and debate are important.  And this is why I find your interventions both here and in the Cegelis diaries utterly deplorable.  
            •  Being drogatory , name calling, and pure attempts (4.00)
              to make the party obsolete, is not the same as dissent. There are many ways to express dissent, that does not discourage people to join in.  This is not one of them.

              People get their panties all in a wad about certain things people say because if people click on dailyKos and read it might discourage them from voting democratic, yet noone considers diaries written like this to have negative effects.  Well, consider clicking on DKos and seeing constant derogatory statements about the party and disgust at everything that is ever done by any of the members.  Why the fuck would anyone ever vote for a party whose so called members hate it.

              I don't believe this person is discussing in good faith.  He is on the fringes of the party working to build a third party in my opinion.  Yes I object to that.  This is a blog here for the purpose of improving the party, not tearing it down.

            •  hmm, i am somewhat torn here. (none)
              i have seen so called diaries for our own "good" just restating rethug talking points and i take issue with them. i get frustrated with some posts that jump on the band wagon loudly condeming democrats. it does us no good.

              but on the other hand i have felt deep frustration with the likes of biden and company recently.

              i know for sure that the nader lits don't have answers. they have some points, but their actions suck.

              so what to do? well, fight, fight, fight! and then fight some more!

          •  How do you know they aren't involved? (none)

            If it talks like an R, VOTES like an R, it is an R even if it has a D after its name.

            by dkmich on Fri Jan 13, 2006 at 09:16:34 PM PST

            [ Parent ]

        •  Criticizing the democrats does not have any- (none)
          thing to do with the diaries you are talking about.

          Criticizing does not have to include hatred, bullying, threatening , and bullshit like this diary and all the others include.  People aren't complaining about diaries where people are discussing alternative moves the Democrats could make, encouraging creative activism, and speaking intelligently about ideas to improve the party.  People are rejecting the hatred and utter lack of support projected like vomit toward the party.  It's sickening.  You ought to reread some of the comments and think about why people are reacting like they do to those diaries.

          •  Exactly (4.00)
            there is a difference between criticism and:
            1. accusing Democrats falsely,
            2. committing political suicide and encouraging others to do the same.

            I'm all for venting.  But dishonesty and promoting bad ideas are another matter entirely.
        •  Why should those jurling venom (4.00)
          at many members of the Kos community expect roses to come back at them?

          If Chuckie has a problem with most Democrats (which he apparently does, given his usage of Freeper vocabulary for us), and comes here to hurl abuse at the Democratic party, then he should expect the same tenor of response.

        •  This week (4.00)
          has frayed everybody's nerves. I've never felt so down about my party, truly, truly discouraged.
        •  I couldn't agree with you more and you are right (none)
          There is a group here who will blast anyone who even
          hints at the things which are wrong within our party
          that we need to correct.

          My question is what makes their attitude any different
          than the one the right wingnuts have except their cause
          may be different?

          If we are to ever have a party that once again can hold
          the power that we need it will not be gained by white
          washing our own when they are wrong.

          Every time I have written any thing relating to correcting
          our own party I have been blasted.

          Having said the above, while I agree with much of what
          the diary says, I do feel that the following was a mistake.


          Are Democrats stupid, or just corrupt?

          There are still some decent and good elected
          Democrats however the majority seems to have left
          the real ideals of the party far behind.

          Don't blame me, I am still trying to figure out what is on the Blue dress :) eaglecries

          by eaglecries on Fri Jan 13, 2006 at 07:46:59 PM PST

          [ Parent ]

    •  Find some productive way to spew your (4.00)
      vemon and anger.  Some of us are sick of the constant name calling and spitting on the party on this site.  It is possible to express anger and be productive and positive with ideas at the same time.  With Democrats spewing this type of stuff, who needs republicans.
    •  Legitimate grievances are different (4.00)
      than pointless whining.

      Especially when the author just makes shit up, ala Freeper moles.

      •  What did I make up, asshole? (none)
        Name one factually incorrect point in my diary.

        In every stage of these Oppressions...: Our repeated Petitions have been answered only by repeated Injury." DoI, TJ

        by ChuckLin on Fri Jan 13, 2006 at 08:31:13 PM PST

        [ Parent ]

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