Skip to main content

View Diary: Know Your Creationists: Glenn Morton (195 comments)

Comment Preferences

  •  Hate leads to suffering... (none)
    Wow. As both a Christian and a Democrat - for whom the Kos community offers some hope to re-take the liberties stolen from us by [erstwhile Republican] Posers from Hell, I am somewhat amazed at the venom expressed here. DarkSyde has presented a scientist who has no problem rectifying his science with his faith, yet we see haters shooting this message down. Who is burning crosses here? Is this what we stand for?

    Thanks for the post, DarkSyde, as it gives me hope that I'm not in the wrong camp. Liberty means more to me than any individual's petty prejudices against those who think or believe differently about matters of faith and science, the meanings they hold dear in their lives.

    To the haters: you are no different from those you hate. You cannot legitimately claim to stand for liberty if you don't believe it extends to those with whom you disagree. I will not stand the front line with you, because you'd turn on me the moment victory was certain - and destroy the very liberty for which we fight. The Democratic party (or any party standing for liberty) would only suffer by your presence. Divide and conquer is an ancient tactic of turncoats and spies. THAT is the politics of marginalization, the insidious, destructive fruits of hate.

    Fie!

    Don't forget there's one BIG difference between Saddam and Bush: Saddam never did anything to help bin Laden.

    by Joy Busey on Sat Jan 21, 2006 at 12:35:06 PM PST

    •  from a hater... (none)
      To the haters: you are no different from those you hate.

      I have friends who have been beaten within an inch of their lives by religious radicals for being gay. I have seen women physically assaulted by anti-abortion activists in front of our local Planned Parenthood. So yes, I AM different from the people I hate. Mr. Morton may represent a certain benign section of religious groups, but they all arise from the same foundation, and that foundation is fractured and corrupt.

      You cannot legitimately claim to stand for liberty if you don't believe it extends to those with whom you disagree.

      No one is denying their right to present their views...I'm simply dedicated to proving to them that they are wrong. Call it "agressive discourse."

      •  That would be the same foundation (none)
        that gave us Martin Luther King.

        You understand, of course, that the religeous right constitutes a MINORITY of christians.

        •  yep (none)
          Religion has given us some great people, as well as some true monsters. There is no denying that. Such "liberal" religion, however, gives a free pass to damaging radical religion. Perhaps H.L. Mencken can express this better than I can:

          "I believe that religion, generally speaking, has been a curse to mankind - that its modest and greatly overestimated services on the ethical side have been more than overcome by the damage it has done to clear and honest thinking."

          -- H.L. Mencken, "Mencken's Creed"

      •  Proud to be a Hater? (none)
        No one is denying their right to present their views...I'm simply dedicated to proving to them that they are wrong. Call it "agressive discourse."

        LOL!!! Have fun wasting your life, hater. "Aggressive discourse" has never been known to prove to anyone that they are wrong. It does, however, prove the utter ignorance of haters (of all stripes) in matters of human nature and psychology. And it's caused no end of purges and war.

        The Civil Rights Movement never proved to a single bigot that their hatred was wrong. It did produce societal sanctions against acting out and voicing bigotry in public, to the point where my grandchildren are honestly amazed that such bigotry ever was allowed to flourish (they are in awe when I talk about marching with MLK and removing the "whites only" signs on public bathrooms and drinking fountains as a teenager). They shun junior bigots with aplomb and great effectiveness without doing serious damage to the misguided junior bigot - whom they understand to be misguided. This encourages junior bigot to think things through and come around, in which case they're welcomed to the social fold. This is not something that can be accomplished by hatred.

        Don't forget there's one BIG difference between Saddam and Bush: Saddam never did anything to help bin Laden.

        by Joy Busey on Sat Jan 21, 2006 at 03:12:48 PM PST

        [ Parent ]

        •  alright then... (none)
          It did produce societal sanctions against acting out and voicing bigotry in public...

          Right...no point is attacking the cause of the problem, just go after the symptoms and the disease will fix itself.

          You say the Civil Rights Movement never changed the mind of one bigot. I certainly hope that isn't true. If it is, that simply means that the bigotry was forced below the surface of society to fester and boil. If that is truly the case, our society has some real worrying to do.

          I'll "waste my life" till its last fighting for rationalism and freedom from religion.

          •  Posers... (none)
            I'll "waste my life" till its last fighting for rationalism and freedom from religion.

            As I said, you're free to do so and I'm not one to deny you your liberty. I find it a little odd that you believe rationalism can be imposed upon others by force, or that you'd extend your own "freedom from religion" to deny others their freedom of religion. Not very democratic (or even "American") of you, but then, I don't expect that you care much for politics.

            Do stay away from me and mine with your totalitarian proclivities and violent attitude, though. I will "fight" tirelessly and nonviolently for sociopolitical causes I believe in, with every intellectual and emotional tool at my disposal. But when rednecks and hooligans show up on my property looking for a fight, I just show 'em the business end of my shotgun.

            Alas, there appear to be Posers from Hell on both sides of the political fence these days (those who use political fences to self-justify their own pretensions and will-to-power). I surmise it has always been thus.

            Don't forget there's one BIG difference between Saddam and Bush: Saddam never did anything to help bin Laden.

            by Joy Busey on Sat Jan 21, 2006 at 04:48:56 PM PST

            [ Parent ]

            •  how kind of you... (none)
              My my...haven't we degenerated into McCarthyism.

              First of all...I never said a word about "force," at least not physical force. I firmly believe that by making people defend their beliefs, by having open and intelectualy honest discourse, and by making it public and constant, that I can change peoples minds. If you want to call honest and open thinking "force," then by all means do so, but don't confuse other people.

              I also never said anything about denying people their right to practice their religion. I firmly believe that religion should not be regulated by the government, save to protect those who do not believe from impositions by those that do. That freedom, however, does not give the religious freedom from criticism by me or anyone else. It does not have a free pass to go unquestioned.  

              So yeah...I'm looking for a fight. If my words make you want to pull out your shotgun, well, so be it. It just makes me think that you are unable to properly justify your beliefs with arguments. As if your decline into calling me un-American wasn't proof enough.

            •  btw... (none)
              ...I also like how you completely failed to address my argument about treating the symptoms of bigotry rather than the cause, and insted retereated to ad hominem attacks.
              •  Evangelist vs. Evangelist (none)
                The cause of the symptoms is addressed. Just not by force. The junior bigots are misguided: they learned their bigotry from someone they love and respect. The process of applying critical thought to views learned with mother's milk is a process of developmental maturing. Coming to terms with one's own social milieu sometimes requires rejecting preconceived notions, which aren't usually confronted inside one's self.

                Psychologically, I liken this process to that process of coming to terms with everything your parents did wrong raising you. All the things the child in you hates them for. A truly adult human being (psychological) has critically examined these emotions. Experienced enough of life to recognize that parents are amateurs. They're all victims of their own relationship with their parents, and ingrained habits of methodology that never worked too well. Stereotypes and social expectations.

                I'm a grandma now, my eldest grandchildren are in high school. I'm not an amateur anymore, though my husband and I talked seriously before we had children about what our parents did wrong, and how we'd avoid those mistakes. So we made mistakes all our own. It was a big moment in each of my children's lives when, approaching adulthood, they learned enough to forgive us for what we'd done.

                I've been lucky to be able to raise one of my grandsons. I mentioned just the other night to my husband that he's turning out just fine in every way, but raising him wasn't nearly as stressful as with his Mom. It's not that we don't care as much, it's that it's not such a big, hairy deal. A more mature approach (I've raised a lot of kids, not all of them my own).

                I do have a great appreciation for youth's endless energy and capacity for righteous indignation. I've manned some barricades in my own youth, and was ready to go all the way if I had to - if it comes to that I can and will. I am just still convinced we need not go that route if we hold our wits about us and use them properly.

                You are welcome to your beliefs, and may evangelize them to your heart's content so long as you don't trample someone else's rights in the process. Isn't that just what you demand from the JW's, et. al.? Your rights don't trump anybody else's - in the ideal Constitutional republic we love to love. It's always good to keep that uppermost in your mind if you're going to tend barricades or evangelize your faith.

                Don't forget there's one BIG difference between Saddam and Bush: Saddam never did anything to help bin Laden.

                by Joy Busey on Sat Jan 21, 2006 at 06:44:33 PM PST

                [ Parent ]

Subscribe or Donate to support Daily Kos.

Click here for the mobile view of the site