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View Diary: The Rules of the Game: Crossing Your Rubicon (242 comments)

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  •  I'm not "leading" this fight (4.00)
    It's not my call as to "what next."

    Sort of my point here.

    The SCOTUS is extraordinary.

    by Armando on Sat Jan 28, 2006 at 08:23:02 AM PST

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    •  I know that was your point... (4.00)
      and I'm not asking you to lead.  You have made your position very clear.  What I am asking is for insight into what you or Markos or dkos think about the price of wheat in China.   I'm not asking you to go get it and feed us.  A little grass hopper routine here and there would be nice.
      Lets start with what you think Kerry and Kennedy's visits here might mean to you, dkos, the US, or the planet.  You pick.

      If it talks like an R, VOTES like an R, it is an R - even if it has a D after its name.

      by dkmich on Sat Jan 28, 2006 at 08:28:43 AM PST

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      •  I really don't know (4.00)
        I am anxious to find out.

        The SCOTUS is extraordinary.

        by Armando on Sat Jan 28, 2006 at 08:30:10 AM PST

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        •  Hi Armando (4.00)
          Rock and a hard place I know.

          I think one thing that access brings besides insider info is responsibility. A responsibility to use the insider info carefully while maintaining the profile that facilitated the access to the info in the first place.

          While someone like me is screaming at the ALL CAPS level for certain action to be taken on certain issues, people with the inside info have to bite their tongues and post platitudes and encouragement careful not to show their cards while maintaining the respect of the community.

          And that doesn't even take into account how holding certain information that would make the community explode with joy (or sorrow) must take its toll or make you fret that one of us screaming and yelling might just reveal a strategy or suggest something the other side might have missed.

          The last point there is one I grapple with regularly.

          This isn't a private site with 80 thousand vetted and screened members who can have their access yanked for security breaches.

          Politics is as much a game of chess as it is soapbox and I wonder how often we tip our hand to the rovians monitoring this site when we parse, hash, and ruminate on the minutia of every issue we tackle.

          Short story long... I understand the position Markos and you in particular are in and I only envy it to a certain degree ;)

      •  We're cats, we're all a bunch (4.00)
        of cats!

        Empty the treasury with a bogus war, then gut the social service programs. Bush & Company.

        by mattes on Sat Jan 28, 2006 at 08:49:43 AM PST

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    •  or abdicating? (4.00)
      seriously.. it's disingenuous for Kos and his selected FPers (who earned that status through their smarts) to disclaim any leadership role in this fight.

      Yes, it's great.. awesome.. that the "community.. is "leading" the fight.

      But there's a reason why leaders matter, too.. why we have elections.

      Especially in the current context.  

      70000 Kossacks contacting their reps. is critical... but so are the individual FACES/persons to represent us.

      I believe that the delegation idea holds great merit.. and I urge Kos, you and the selected others... to make that DC trip.

      •  I'm terrified that 70,000 Kossacks (4.00)
        are gonna end up in a bunch.  Are we gonna turn into dodge em cars?  I just wish there was some coordination somewhere.   Like the Kennedy thread.  I was surprised at the volume of "open thread" like comments on it.  What do you think they made of that?  Quickly, let me add that I'm not criticizing anyone who participated in that.  I have no better idea of what should have been the content of the comments.  At least the chatter added comments.  It would have been worse if it had had no comments.

        If it talks like an R, VOTES like an R, it is an R - even if it has a D after its name.

        by dkmich on Sat Jan 28, 2006 at 08:37:41 AM PST

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        •  To a certain extent (4.00)
          I think we are like bumper cars, and that's one of the things that makes the site great.  If everyone had to be "coordinated" then it would be something different.  

          The fact that we can disagree but still debate, mostly agreeably, and the variety expression, is what makes this place interesting.

          There are places to go to "get coordinated" if that's what you're after.  But a clearinghouse for idea-sharing is not the same thing as a political party or a drive to accomplish a specific political result.

    •  But you know what, Armando.... (4.00)
      I actually have much trust that you and Kos could actually come up with a rather ingenuous 'what next'.  I do. Why? Because you guys have proven time and time again that you have serious political savvy, and not to mention 'connections' to media and important persons.

      You are both situated to acuallly make a rather LOUD rallying cry.  Not implementing it now is disappointing to say the least.

      LetsFight. re handle: Fight the radical right is the sentiment!

      by letsfight on Sat Jan 28, 2006 at 08:39:50 AM PST

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      •  AND (4.00)
        do you know how silly your community and the net roots will look if this thing blows up.  It will reflect back and you can't deny that.  Then you can kiss your influence good bye.  Right?  You know you have a vested interest - why aren't you at least gently guiding from the side lines if you think you will too easily corrupt opinions here so you are remaining mute.  Are you taking the fifth?  

        If it talks like an R, VOTES like an R, it is an R - even if it has a D after its name.

        by dkmich on Sat Jan 28, 2006 at 08:44:59 AM PST

        [ Parent ]

        •  If you are responding to my post.... (4.00)
          The ONLY dirty bomb in this battle (a la your analogy of this thing blowing up) is an Alito confirmation.

          Or are you suggesting that if the frontpagers spoke loudly for filibuster and it didn't happen or it didn't work or a nuke option resulted... that daily kos would have egg on its face, and because of that risk only, the front pagers should sit on their hands?

          ?????I am not sure you were even responding to my post...... So you don't fight if there isn't a 100% guarantee that you will win?

          LetsFight. re handle: Fight the radical right is the sentiment!

          by letsfight on Sat Jan 28, 2006 at 08:50:21 AM PST

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          •  fight smart (none)

            "The pen is mightier than the sword, but only at a range of greater than five feet" Malaclypse the Younger

            by buhdydharma on Sat Jan 28, 2006 at 08:54:45 AM PST

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            •  I agree. (4.00)
              But it is literally the cornerstone of this demcracy that is overtly threatened with Alito on the bench. Let's take the medicare bill and the bankruptcy bill, for instance. Now those issues were/are abominations in this alleged First World nation. Despicable. But they are not the very foundations of the entire republic.

              Yes, most of the time you have to fight smart.

              And, sometimes, you just FIGHT... with everything you've got.  If you've got a leader by virtue of his or her position in your group.. for god's sakes... lift him up to the top scaffold to speak loudly. Very loudly.

              LetsFight. re handle: Fight the radical right is the sentiment!

              by letsfight on Sat Jan 28, 2006 at 09:01:40 AM PST

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              •  Yes sometimes ya gotta 'Get Mad At It' (4.00)
                But if their is one overriding strategic/tactical lesson that history teaches us, its that Leaders who act without thinking, out of JUST passion are defeated.

                We are in an unexpectedly powerful situation an need to use that power wisely not blindly.

                I applaud your passion and that of all those here and support you/us 100%.

                I am the old guard and part of my function is to use my mind and wisdom so those that go out on the field have the best support they can get.

                That being said LETSFIGHT!, letsfight!

                "The pen is mightier than the sword, but only at a range of greater than five feet" Malaclypse the Younger

                by buhdydharma on Sat Jan 28, 2006 at 09:14:35 AM PST

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                •  And let's also make sure.... (4.00)
                  that we have a good dose of BUDDYDHARMA! BUDDYDHARMA too!!!

                  Ying/yang.  We need it all.

                  btw, I really love coming across your posts all over the board..... you really do walk the walk...

                  LetsFight. re handle: Fight the radical right is the sentiment!

                  by letsfight on Sat Jan 28, 2006 at 09:32:59 AM PST

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                  •  As do you, friend (none)
                    tanx

                    "The pen is mightier than the sword, but only at a range of greater than five feet" Malaclypse the Younger

                    by buhdydharma on Sat Jan 28, 2006 at 09:50:47 AM PST

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                    •  We should have our own public tv show... (none)
                      There will be me in full armor... frothing at the mouth...arms flailing.. crying out, "Pounce! We must Pounce!  Tigger was RIGHT!"

                      Camera pan to BuddyDharma... shaded by a cloud of exquisite incense and lighted by a series of well placed prayer candles... saying, calmly, "ohmmmmmmmm" followed with a big smile.

                      Moderator pipes in..."George from DC on the line... what's your comment, sir?"

                      George from DC: "Oh, I give up!  I just flat out give up!  

                      And then we Win!!!  Yay!

                      LetsFight. re handle: Fight the radical right is the sentiment!

                      by letsfight on Sat Jan 28, 2006 at 10:24:03 AM PST

                      [ Parent ]

                      •  Nice! (none)
                        But if you google Bohdidharma whose name I appropriated, you will see that us Taoists have (very cool)armor too.

                        Swinging the Sword of Peace is no less dangerous than the Sword of War! LOL, thus my sig.

                        and btw its AUM! ;)

                        "The pen is mightier than the sword, but only at a range of greater than five feet" Malaclypse the Younger

                        by buhdydharma on Sat Jan 28, 2006 at 10:41:47 AM PST

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                •  A history lesson (none)
                  Your assertion, "But if their is one overriding strategic/tactical lesson that history teaches us, its that Leaders who act without thinking, out of JUST passion are defeated" is somewhat tendentious. No leaders act "JUST" out of passion.

                  History has shown that leaders can and will lead knowingly into defeat, rather than leave a passionate group of followers leaderless. They accrue even greater leadership authority thereby. The Bolsheviks won a lot of authority against the other parties in 1917 because they were the only party that supported the masses in a doomed spontaneous uprising in Petrograd and Moscow in July 1917. They debated heavily among themselves before supporting the uprising, which they had had nothing to do with organizing. But they finally chose to support, and then lead it, i.e., take leadership responsibility, go to jail over it, etc. Historians who often can't figure out where the Bolsheviks got their political capital overlook this important but underanalysed event.

                  There are many more instances one could give, but this is the one that came to my mind at this moment. John Brown at Harpers Ferry also comes to mind.

                  "...in this abject posture have ye sworn / To adore the Conquerour?..../ Awake, arise, or be for ever fall'n."

                  by Valtin on Sat Jan 28, 2006 at 10:46:20 AM PST

                  [ Parent ]

                  •  Many many examples (none)
                    the meeting of the weathermen to go violent and underground was legendary in my circles.

                    This is the "debating heavily before supporting the uprising" phase and we are doing a good job.

                    Of course there is no 'decision' to be made her its time for a fight, past time. Its how to fight and thats the critical moment.

                    Ghandi v. Stalin in the extreme.

                    Our strength is our medium and our our smarts, we are information warriors. We must use our strength and gaurd our weaknesses, in this case a type of war fever that is kinda neato. Imo this current question is settled by Armandos fp post.

                    But I bet the discussion continues,LOL!

                    "The pen is mightier than the sword, but only at a range of greater than five feet" Malaclypse the Younger

                    by buhdydharma on Sat Jan 28, 2006 at 11:26:35 AM PST

                    [ Parent ]

                    •  Oh yeah (none)
                      "Leaders who act without thinking, out of JUST passion are defeated" is somewhat tendentious. No leaders act "JUST" out of passion."

                      None that we remember, hee hee

                      "The pen is mightier than the sword, but only at a range of greater than five feet" Malaclypse the Younger

                      by buhdydharma on Sat Jan 28, 2006 at 11:29:25 AM PST

                      [ Parent ]

          •  I think I was agreeing with you. (none)
            The only hope we have (when we are allowed to exercise our free speech rights without getting zeros) is us, the grass roots.  Yes Alito getting confirmed would be really, really bad.  I'm not saying the fight shouldn't have been fought either.  I'm just worry that in all of this the integrity of this site and the people on it gets destroyed.   Again the only hope for reform is us.  If we destroy us - then what?  So my real question is, what next.  Not even next about Alito, but what next about the activism that caught fire here?  How does it nurture and grow what it kindled?

            If it talks like an R, VOTES like an R, it is an R - even if it has a D after its name.

            by dkmich on Sat Jan 28, 2006 at 09:08:49 AM PST

            [ Parent ]

        •  My response if you are just ADDING to my post. (none)
          (as suggested by the ingenuous use of the word AND as your title... doh!)

          RIGHT!

          LetsFight. re handle: Fight the radical right is the sentiment!

          by letsfight on Sat Jan 28, 2006 at 08:53:21 AM PST

          [ Parent ]

      •  An idea....a e-newletter sent (4.00)
        each week to our senators with key diaries that have important information not commonly seen on MSM, and also diaries that have energy proposals etc. Knowledge is power. We will fight the lobbyists with the truth! And senators can get immediate feedback on what's happening in general.

        Empty the treasury with a bogus war, then gut the social service programs. Bush & Company.

        by mattes on Sat Jan 28, 2006 at 08:55:50 AM PST

        [ Parent ]

        •  Cherry pick from jotter's daily list (none)
          Take the best of top of the daily high impact diary lists and forward to all of the Dems.

          "Our lives begin to end the day we become silent about the things that matter." Dr. ML King, from a jail cell in Birmingham, Alabama in 1963.

          by bewert on Sat Jan 28, 2006 at 09:35:38 AM PST

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      •  I agree (4.00)
        but it's political savvy based on listening to us, the roots.

        That's the point.

        We are the Democrats.

    •  Armando, great post, thanks (4.00)
      I understand that this is a personal decision for all of us to make.

      But if you and DH are going to take the lead as enforcers or in DH's case, bullies, you have to expect people to look for you to lead in other situations as well. It goes both ways.

      I have nothing negative to say about anyone, here.
      We all have to decide for our selves (as you said in your post) our level of commitment and participation.

      I trust you and the other luminaries here to do the right thing and you have my support whatever happens. I'm just proud to be part of this process

      "The pen is mightier than the sword, but only at a range of greater than five feet" Malaclypse the Younger

      by buhdydharma on Sat Jan 28, 2006 at 08:51:45 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  Not rating this because I'm ambivalent (none)
        You make a good point, i.e., "this is a personal decision for all of us to make". If you want to see my embittered post, just look down a few comments; your point that there is nothing negative to say about anyone here (e.g. Armando or Kos), is ennobling.

        But I can't quite bring myself to agree. When Kos and Armando started appearing on radio, and presenting themselves as some kind of authority on politics, I started to feel toward them the aura of leadership. Not that I thought they had become leaders, but they WERE putting themselves forward, whether they can see this or not.

        I don't have the bully pulpit they do. I believe that gives them a kind of responsibility. I do not feel as angry toward them as I do toward the Senate Democrats, who have almost totally shown us how to be either cowardly or inept.

        I know, the fight is not yet over. But it has been run with almost indifference from the top, not cagey smarts, as some would aver. Political battles are not won by unleashing the troops without a plan or a leadership to guide them. That's how good people get slaughtered.

        I can only feel very dubious toward this proclamation of a new program by armando, kos and kid oakland, a new "pragmatism" it's been called.

        I will await more substantive analysis until after the Alito fight is either won or lost, and some lessons absorbed. I am not sanguine. If I have offended anyone here, that was not my intention. If I turn out to be utterly wrong, I will join you at the bonfire of MY vanities, viz. my various critical comments and rants, and regale myself in their warmth.

        "...in this abject posture have ye sworn / To adore the Conquerour?..../ Awake, arise, or be for ever fall'n."

        by Valtin on Sat Jan 28, 2006 at 10:35:05 AM PST

        [ Parent ]

    •  On not leading the fight (none)
      I guess the SCOTUS was not so extraordinary after all.

      "...in this abject posture have ye sworn / To adore the Conquerour?..../ Awake, arise, or be for ever fall'n."

      by Valtin on Sat Jan 28, 2006 at 10:25:30 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  Update (none)
        I see, Armando, you have joined the fight, now up on the front page.

        Welcome, and much welcomed.

        "...in this abject posture have ye sworn / To adore the Conquerour?..../ Awake, arise, or be for ever fall'n."

        by Valtin on Sat Jan 28, 2006 at 10:48:34 AM PST

        [ Parent ]

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