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View Diary: Sunday Talk - State of "Lies" (395 comments)

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  •  don't think dude, it can only hurt the team (none)
    I know what I'm saying

    the only journalist type person who has UNIVERSAL acceptance around here (from my view) is Jaun Cole

    other than that, Sy Hersh, maybe ...

    •  Uhm, Juan Cole is not universally accepted (none)
      I hope that I am not alone on this, but Juan Cole is somewhat, if not decidedly, hostile to the State of Israel, and it infects his writing.  I wonder what he has to say about the election of Hamas.  I will check it out.  

      By the way, this is probably another example of why Dems lose elections.  You see we don't all agree on anything.  That is, I believe, one of the biggest differences between us and them.  

      •  Wow (none)
        It was worse than I expected.

        Juan Cole has ONE article on his homepage about the Hamas victory, and he forget to ask whether Hamas will put down its arms now that it has won.  

        Instead, he takes this opportunity to attack Sharon. He says: ". . . Ariel Sharon [was allowed] to sideline the ruling Fatah Party of Yasser Arafat, to fire missiles at its police stations, and to reduce its leader to a besieged nonentity."

        It's all the Israeli's fault, right? Do you really believe your hyperbole?  Sharon reduced Yasser Arafat to a non-entity?  Yasser Arafat had nothing to do with what became of Yasser Arafat.  Poor little ol' Arafat.  I think also Arafat was dying, no?  Or, was he poisoned Mr. Cole?

        More Juan: "Sharon arrogantly ordered the murder of civilian Hamas leaders in Gaza"  

        I guess no leader of Hamas ever ordered the murder of civilian Israelis?  More telling, however, is that Juan is trying to equate "civilian" with "innocent."  The leaders of Hamas were never innocent.  I haven't read all of Mr. Cole's musings, but I wonder if he would have said the same things if Sharon were not in a coma. I imagine he would.

        Truth be told I have no problem with Hamas being elected because we make peace with our enemies rather than our friends.  I also agree with those that say give them the keys, and let's see if they can do better.  I would, however, stop the funding (if I could) until they showed they intended to use that money responsibly and peaceably.

        I haven't forgotten about you Mr. Cole:

        "Meanwhile, Israeli settlements continued to grow [and] the fatally flawed Oslo agreements delivered nothing to the Palestinians."

        Yes, absoultely nothing.  Wasn't Arafat allowed to return?  Wasn't Arafat allowed to establish a government, and now the Israelis were in the process of giving them land.  In Juan's eyes I guess that was nothing, and Juan blames the Israelis for all of it.  

        "The Israeli withdrawal from Gaza, which should have been a big step forward for peace, was marred by the refusal of the Israelis to cooperate with the Palestinians in ensuring that it did not produce a power vacuum and further insecurity."

        Mind you this is all within the space of one paragraph.  

        I understand that Iraq is a bigger story, but the Palestinian election was the big story this week in the mid-East.  

        The rest of his story is cross-posted somewhere else.  I can't imagine it is worth reading.  

        •  This is rich. (none)
          It is so rich.

          Wasn't Arafat allowed to return?  Wasn't Arafat allowed to establish a government, and now the Israelis were in the process of giving them land.

          These are the wrong questions. The right questions are these:

          Didn't the US support over several decades Israel's confiscation of a huge share of the land in the occupied territories?

          Didn't the US allow Israel to settle hundreds of thousands of its citizens in the occupied territories in defiance of international law and numerous UN Security Council resolutions?

          Don't these US policies have consequences for the "War on Terror"?

          Why does the Democratic Party always support Israeli policies against the best interests of our own country and the opposition of the entire world? The entire world, I say. Not the "Muslim world".

          •  The answers (none)
            While these are not "the correct" questions, I will answer them.

            No, Yes and No, and Yes.

            I don't see really the point of your third question.  

            I doubt you could be so objective if I posed some questions.

            By the way there is no occupation.  

            The whole world is against the state of Israel?

            You're kind of scary.  

            I wonder where you would begin your arguments?

            •  Where I begin my argument (4.00)
              Those questions are self-documenting to anyone who has more than a cursory knowledge of the region.

              • The US has supported Israel's illegal confiscation of huge swaths of Palestinian land in the Occupied Territories simply by refusing to do anything about it, despite our leverage with Israel and influence in the world at large.

              • We are in agreement on the answer to question 2, apparently.

              • US support of the Israeli occupation has huge negative consequences on the "War on Terror", as polls in Arab and Muslim countries show. The National Commission on Terrorist Attacks Upon the United States reported that the Sept 11 attack itself was directly motivated by resentment of US support of Israel. The report says this about Khalid Sheikh Mohammed, described as "the principal architect of the 9/11 attacks": By his own account, KSM's animus toward the United States stemmed not from his experiences there as a student, but rather from his violent disagreement with U.S. foreign policy favoring Israel.  The MSM hasn't given this highly significant point much play, preferring to dwell on "they hate us for our goodness".

              • You answer "Yes" to the question "Why does the Democratic Party always support Israel . . .". Perhaps you'd like to give that more thought.
              •  so I guess your arguement is... (none)
                that we Shouln't support Israel because a bunch of terrorists don't like it.

                Hamas does not recognize the state of Israel REGARDLESS of the United States. The only conclusions I can draw from your statement are a) we should always cave to terrorists, or b) the state of Israel has no right to exist.

                •  It's much more... (none)
                  complex than taking an either/or position.

                  Yes, there are Paelstinian terrorists. But there are also Palestinians who aren't terrorists.

                  There are a lot of those non-terrorist Paelstinians who seem to find their homes bulldozed and blown up in the collateral damage ridden search for the terrorists.

                  And there are a lot of Israelis who are very very interested in trying to find some sort of peaceful ground from which to work.

                  Engaging in over-simplified assumptions doesn't help people better understand the current situation.

                  "Computer. End holographic program...Computer? Computer?"

                  by kredwyn on Sun Jan 29, 2006 at 12:09:37 PM PST

                  [ Parent ]

      •  Right On, fightorleave (none)
        I too am disturbed by the anti-Israeli rhetoric of Mr. Cole. It's also disturbing that, like the right, our side marches in lock-step to some "leaders"; if someone is "oppressed" they're automatically "right", even if they're a terror organization.
        •  Nowhere does Juan Cole say (4.00)
          "Hamas is right".

          I'm "disturbed" by your massive distortions of what he actually said. I encourage people to read Cole's Salon article on Hamas, as well as Gil Achar's analysis   posted on Cole's own site.

          The point is that unwavering American support for whatever Israel chooses to do, such as their planting illegal settlements on confiscated Palestinian land, has been very bad for American interests.  This is not something supporters of Israel like to talk about. It is something that people who are concerned about the future of this country should think about.

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