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View Diary: What Would Prophet Muhammad Do? (110 comments)

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  •  i feel like im taking crazy pills (none)
    I thought liberals were supposed to be masters of sniffing out hidden racism and concealed bigotry.

    So the Danes closed down one radio station, but allow offensive cartoons? Am I supposed to feel comforted and placated then? Nobody's addressing the root issue, and I can't do that until people understand what Muslims are upset about! What do you think I'm mad about? I love free speech, and I use it all the time, and I don't like violence.

    The point is that there's a lot of right-wing Islamophobia in Europe, and you're completely ignoring it and focusing on either the Muslims' reaction, or trying to lecture me on free speech, which I said I support with legal limits like slander, clear and present danger, and hate speech. Muslims feel these cartoons fall into all 3 of those categories

    •  please don't go there. (none)
      We are here to debate and frankly you can't have a debate when everyone agrees.  You happen to have a unique perspective that very few in this community have.  Don't be surprised that others here have problems seeing things from your side.  It doesn't make them racist or bigoted.

      I am glad you wrote your diary and shared your unique perspective.  But this is an opportunity for you as well to better understand the perspective of others.  If we cannot see the peace of Islam as you do, then we must together find the obstacles that might block our view of that conclusion.  

      I can't wait til they start making us wear armbands.

      by DawnG on Sun Feb 05, 2006 at 06:49:08 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

    •  the difference (none)
      Isn't there a difference between calling for the extermination of a people and printing a cartoon that mocks a people's beliefs?

      The first incites violence... it tells people, you should kill these people.   It directly asks for a specefic, violant response.

      The second is mockery, perhaps racist and certainly uncalled for.  However, NONE of those cartoons encourage the Danes to kill or harm Muslims.

      That is a big difference.

      •  how many agree? (none)
        I wonder how many people here would agree?

        These cartoons didn't occur in a vacuum. There was a lot of hatred and hate crimes before the cartoons got published. Why else do you think people are so upset? Cartoons have been published in the past, but there's a lot of tension over underlying issues. The closed radio station and the cartoonists are obviously part of the same political party.

        If I printed homophobic cartoons in the wake of Matthew Sheppard's death, wouldn't some people here say it's incitement? If I printed anti-Black cartoons right after the Rodney King riots, wouldn't that be wrong and incitement? How come Jewish people are protected under the Danish law, but not Muslims? Everyone here is avoiding that issue, I see.

        •  Hate crimes (none)
          I would like to know more about the Danish Hate crimes.  As far as I can tell, the violence between Dane's and Muslims has been the death of Theo Van Gogh.

          Are Jews protected from hate speech under Danish law?  I can't find any evidence of that; I have found that inciting racial/religious violence is illegal.   The closest thing I have found is a case in 2002 where someone spent 60 days in jail for passing out literature that  called for killing Jews.   That is quite a bit different than  these cartoons.

          •  ok (none)
            Theo Van Gough was killed in the Netherlands. One man killed him and the Muslim community condemned it. It didn't stop mobs from burning down mosques and schools, and telling native Dutch-born Muslims "go back to where you came from."

            David Irving is still in an Austrian Jail for publishing a Holocaust denial in a newspaper.  How come nobody took up his cause, or decided to reprint his material elsewhere in Europe, as free speech?

            •  There's no reason (none)
              for that kind of behavior.  No reason to be mean.  

              The laws of Austria and Germany include crimes against anti-semitism for a very specific reason, the death of 6 million Jews at their hands.   It is not because anti-Semitism is any worse than anti-Islamic speech.

              If Danish Muslims are concerned about the laws, they should work to have them amended.  I have to say, I haven't heard of any problemic behavior on the part of  Danish Muslim protestors which suggests to me that there has been some incitement in the Middle East.

              •  they are (none)
                Muslims ARE working to have them amended. Anti-Semitism is just as bad as Islamophobic speech. People have been killed in hate crimes in Europe against Muslims. Srebrenica is proof of just how dangerous Islamophobia is. If you see the Holocaust as proof of the need for laws against hate speech, will you agree that the deaths of other minorities is proof that hate speech shouldn't be tolerated from anyone at anyone?
                •  Not the same (none)
                  Again, it is awful but not the same.  

                  Germany (and Austria) went through a deliberate campaign to exterminate every Jew in Europe.   Moreover, the anti-Semitic plank of the Nazi platform helped the Nazi's come to power and invade many countries.   Anti-semitism became a tool of an extermist group that wanted to a totalitarian regime over all of Europe and they almost got their wish.   Because of their own very deadly and dangerous history, Germany and Austria have chosen not to allow that to arise within their culture again and anti-semitism is the most obvious sign.  

                  As I have stated elsewhere, I think there is a difference between hate speech and inciting violence.   The first is horrible but permissible.  The second is not.

                  These cartoons and the most of the anti-Semitic cartoons that come out of the Arab world fall into the first category.

                  •  Moral relativism (none)
                    It's moral relativism again. Anti-Semitism is a threat to people's lives, but Islamophobia isn't?

                    Islamophobia was used to help press the Iraq war, it fueled hate crimes, it's used to provoke terrorists, it leads to riots, it's obviously a bad thing and one of the threats the world faces, as it will cause more of these incidents and more terrorism. It's danger is well-known, but you're saying hate speech against Jews is more dangerous than hate speech against Muslims? Muslims died by the thousands in Europe already, and you're going to dismiss it because it wasn't millions. How do you do live with such moral relativism?

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