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View Diary: 99.80% Error rate! NSA Leaks destroy legal defenses of wiretaps! (93 comments)

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  •  Gonzales did not make it through USAFA (none)
    He bailed out after 2 years.

    Charles Brown did finish.

    And Wes Clark was #1 in his class in Westpoint and Jimmy Carter graduated from Annapolis.

    Service academies do not graduate mindless jackbooted Nazis.  Not even now under Bush.  

    Gonzales did graduate from Rice and Harvard though.

    Dailykos.com; an oasis of truth. -1.75 -7.23

    by Shockwave on Mon Feb 06, 2006 at 06:35:36 PM PST

    [ Parent ]

    •  Do they teach you to follow orders (none)
      and to kill other people because someone else says they are the bad guys?

      Communists, guerrillas, terrorists...

      Live Free or Die (-8.88 -9.49) IMPEACH

      by rktect on Mon Feb 06, 2006 at 06:39:50 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  They teach to follow lawful orders (none)
        (c) A general order or regulation is lawful unless it is contrary to the Constitution, the laws of the United States, or lawful superior orders or for some other reason is beyond the authority of the official issuing it. See the discussion of lawfulness in paragraph 14c(2)(a).

        This is a place to start

        The service academies take high school students from every state through congressional, presidential, gubernatorial appointments as well as sons and daughters of Congressional Medal of Honor winners and young decorated war veterans who had enlisted rank.

        These kids are good to start with and they are put thorugh rigorous training and extremely tough academics.  The Geneva Convention is drilled into their brains from day 1.

        On the other hand, after 6 years of neo-cons in power, I am afraid what may be happening in the Pentagon as a whole.

        Most officers in the armed forces come from ROTC programs in civilian universities, most generals and admirals come from the service academies.

        The US Armed Forces are the most professional in the world and its officers are first and foremost American citizens.

        No system is perfect, bad apples existed even in heaven among the angels.  But we can be proud of our military.

        Its civilian leadership including Bush, Cheney, Rumsfeld, Feith, Wolfowitz before he got the World Bank, is another story.  Unfortunately, the American people voted for an evil moron twice.  

        God help us! (and I am an atheist)

        R U the rktect from the Matrix?

        Dailykos.com; an oasis of truth. -1.75 -7.23

        by Shockwave on Mon Feb 06, 2006 at 07:27:00 PM PST

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        •  Graham addressed my concern (4.00)
          Having served makes you a member of the worlds largest fraternity.

          There are rivalries both between service branches and enlisted and officer pay grades but we tend to agree on more than we fight over when it comes down to it.

          A lot of old soldiers share the same attitudes and values as regards what is and is not a lawful order.

          Soldiers in the field have to trust their officers to be able to exercise good judgement, have a strong moral compass and be able to tell right from wrong. Their lives depend on being not only able to follow orders but to trust that the orders they are issued are the right thing to do.

          Graham raises the question, if we listen to Gonzales, and then later in a combat situation the UCMJ says one thing and the President says another what do you do.

          We have already heard about NSA's high regard for FISA being warped by Hayden's redefinition of probable cause as reasonable suspicion.

          Hayden asks how do you find a sleeper cell that goes to great lengths to never do anything wrong and look just like everybody else.

          He is essentially saying well, we have to spy on everybody all the time with or without a warrant because that is necessary so that we will know who we need to spy on more and necessity takes precedence over the law.

          Modern war colleges are teaching cadets that this is a new type of war with new rules. If the rule is that in this new type of war there are no rules, and in some situations you have to do what you have to do, well, thats no longer a military organization.

          If you think you have to follow orders, but also decide for yourself what is right and wrong, thats a hell of a trip to lay on a young kid in a combat situation. There is no question but that it will cost lives

          I would prefer that troops continue to be taught some of those old fashioned checks and balances, like no women, no kids.

          There is a Uniform Code of Military Justice UCMJ, which constitutes the rules that under the constitution it is the responsibility of Congress to make to govern the conduct of our soldiers for a reason.

          Maybe we should have realized that if we let our courts select somebody who was AWOL and a deserter to be commander in chief, he would never have had much use for that

          This stuff with the President reserving the right to order soldiers to hold non combatants hostage, torture prisoners, kill wounded combatants, organize force extenders as death squads...that Negroponte stuff portends our military becoming little more than a gang of organized CIA criminals.

          If we are already allowing covert forces to engage in assassinations and drug deals and rapes and reprisals not to mention predator strikes on women and children to pressure people living in an ungoverned territory to give up their ideological views... that makes me wonder how any officer with an honor code can participate in that at any level.

          The problem isn't so much what it does to the officers as what it does to our troops being ordered into combat in an urban jungle with no rules.

          While I am intrigued by the cluster of ideas touched on in the Matrix, including the use of NMap, and changing definitions of US and them, the Devil is in the details.

          Live Free or Die (-8.88 -9.49) IMPEACH

          by rktect on Tue Feb 07, 2006 at 05:22:11 AM PST

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          •  There are exceptions (none)
            General Hayden is one.

            He is not an Academy grad and he seems to be quite willing to break the law.

            This 4 star rubs me really wrong.

            Dailykos.com; an oasis of truth. -1.75 -7.23

            by Shockwave on Tue Feb 07, 2006 at 08:42:10 AM PST

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            •  Hayden isn't my idea of a soldier (none)
              Hayden entered ROTC in 1969 and has been one of those Neidemeyer ROTC staff officer types his whole career. Here's his Wiki blurb.

              During the Vietnam War ROTC was like TANG. its where rich cowards went to avoid having to do any real military service. It's kind of a crime against nature to let that man wear this country's uniform.

              Hayden has served as commander of the Air Intelligence Agency and director of the Joint Command and Control Warfare Center, both headquartered at Lackland Air Force Base.

              He also has served in senior staff positions in the Pentagon;

              Headquarters U.S. European Command, Stuttgart, Germany;

              the National Security Council, Washington, D.C.,

              and the U.S. Embassy in the People's Republic of Bulgaria.

              Prior to his current assignment, the general served as deputy chief of staff for United Nations Command and U.S. Forces Korea, Yongsan Army Garrison.

              He has also worked in intelligence in Guam.

              Most recently he served as director of the National Security Agency.

              Live Free or Die (-8.88 -9.49) IMPEACH

              by rktect on Tue Feb 07, 2006 at 10:34:43 AM PST

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      •  Unproductive ! (none)
        but I'll give it a pass on rating likewise since you may be responding from strong emotion rather than intelligent logic

        Practice absurdus interruptus - Support ePluribus Media.

        by Catte Nappe on Mon Feb 06, 2006 at 07:59:47 PM PST

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