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View Diary: My Hero Jihad (271 comments)

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  •  Legalize idolatry (none)
    Excellent diary. I say legalize idolatry. What is wrong with it? Any scientific reason? Bin Laden videos are OK, painting and worshipping images are not! It has been part of human race since time immemorial. How cruel it is to ban visual sensory input from spirituality/religion.
    •  What are you talking about? (none)
      Anyone selling Bin Ladin videos in most Arab countries would be locked in the slammer immediately.
      •  Hypocrisy (none)
        Why do they have to sell when people can watch it on Al Jazeera. Islamic fundies use images/paintings/T shits/caps when it suits them. That is a clear form of idolatry. The same crowd will riot and kill when shoe falls on the other foot.
        Millions of people have been slaughtered in the past just because some murderous people could not tolerate others who have a different way to worship their God. Thats why I say attack the root cause...accept and legalize idolatry.

        Come on give one logical and scientific reason for opposing idolatry.
        Blind faith?

        •  Don't speak to me that way (none)
          The Great Ptah demands more respect. Hypocrisy my ass.
        •  Actually, it is not hypocrisy (none)
          there are divisions within Islam that account for the different use of pictoral representations of martyrs.  Sunnis and Shiites have very different views on the subject and most of the "icons" of martyrs you see on television are from Shiites.

          And, I could be wrong, but most of the pictoral representations of Mohammed in the Islamic world dating from the middle ages were made in Persia.

          Even within the Sunni branch, there is a vast differnce between Islam as practiced in say, Indonesia and Saudi Arabia.  In Indonesia, many Muslims also worship the idols of local gods that existed in that region prior to the introduction of Islam by traders.

          As to the the main point of your post, legalize idolatry, Islam believes that only Allah can make law, now man.

          And Allah forbade idolatry.

          Please recognize that in Muslim majority countries, for them to say that men can overturn or modify the laws given by Allah is a non-starter.  

          My solution?

          Disallow the hadith as a basis for Islamic law.

          As to whether that is feasible?

          I don't know.

          Call the world if you Please "The vale of Soul-making" Then you will find out the use of the world. - Keats

          by republican with a small r on Tue Feb 07, 2006 at 03:32:00 PM PST

          [ Parent ]

          •  Allah (none)
            This may be nitpicking and you probably already know all this. But I wish we wouldn't use the word "Allah". It means "God" in Arabic. In the Arabic version of the Bible, Christians worship "Allah" too. Same Semitic root as the Hebrew "El" that pops up in common names such as Michael and Daniel and Nathaniel. Why do we have to use the Arabic word when we talk about God? It sort of implies that Muslims worship a separate deity.
            •  Use of the word "Allah" (none)
              It sort of implies that Muslims worship a separate deity.

              They do worship a different deity.

              But then, I'm Hindu.

              Actually, this is a very involved theological point.

              In Hinduism, and, believe it or not, Hinduism is philosophically montheistic, all manifestations of the divine, whether they are locally worshiped as Shiva, Kali, Allah, Jehovah, the Virgin Mary, Odin, Apollo, etcetera

              are the attempts of finite limited consciousness to understand an infinite.

              And therefore, logically, all gods and goddesses are local manifestations of one infinite.

              The problem is that many Muslims, and yes, Christians too, have a limited understanding of the term monotheistic and think it is wrong to have different words for the infinite.

              So they insist on a single word, God, to refer to the infinite and won't allow for others to worship the infinite in their own way.

              So yes, I will use the word "allah", because I think the Muslims worship just one among many manifestations of the infinite.

              And I'll use the words Jehovah, Yahweh, Jesus, the Holy Ghost, Satan, and the Virgin Mary to describe the various Christian gods and goddesses.

              Call the world if you Please "The vale of Soul-making" Then you will find out the use of the world. - Keats

              by republican with a small r on Tue Feb 07, 2006 at 03:54:28 PM PST

              [ Parent ]

              •  This wiccan (none)
                gave you a 4. Great comment.

                Things fall apart-the center cannot hold...The best lack all conviction While the worst are full of passionate intensity (-9.25\-7.54)

                by kestrel9000 on Tue Feb 07, 2006 at 05:49:38 PM PST

                [ Parent ]

              •  But do you realize (none)
                that "one god" of the Jews, Christians and Muslims is the same one? Not in the "philosophically monothestic" way, but it is actually the same "God" (Jehovah and Yahweh are spelling variations). I think that is the real reason the war between Israel and the Muslim Mideast is so nasty ... on top of the land dispute is a fight over who has the rights to God.

                "All governments lie, but disaster lies in wait for countries whose officials smoke the same hashish they give out." --I.F. Stone

                by Alice in Florida on Tue Feb 07, 2006 at 07:06:57 PM PST

                [ Parent ]

                •  No, they are not the same "god" (none)
                  Kripke's The Necessity of Naming

                  Would Benjamin Franklin still be Ben Franklin if he was a British Loyalist and opposed the Revolutionary war?

                  or
                  Rosenzweig The Star of Redemption

                  Allah is a primitive form/re-interpretation of montheistic polytheism. (The Star of Redemption is a dense and complex analysis of the differences between Christianity, Judaism, and Islam.)

                  Just because Muslims state that they are the same God is not a reason to believe it.

                  If I re-named Kali, Yahweh, and said that she was the same god as the Christian god, and stated that now people should wear a belt of skulls, Christians would say that I'm crazy.

                  Mohammed took a bunch of names and a few stories from the Old and New Testaments and then wove an entirely different mythos around those names.

                  He also took historical figures like Alexander the Great and put them in the Koran.  But I think we can all agree that Alexander never saw the sun setting in a pool of black mud.  Oh, and that Alexander the Great never obeyed the commands of Allah - being the good Macedonian pagan that he was.

                  The 'Alexander the Great' in the Koran is not the Alexander the Great that really lived.  Mohammed just took an existing bit of folklore and embellished it.

                  And likewise, the Allah of the Koran is not the God of the Christian/Judaic testaments.


                  First Alexander traveled west until he saw the sun setting in a pool of black mud. There, on Allah's command, he punished the wicked inhabitants and rewarded the righteous. Next he traveled east until he found peoples who were constantly exposed to the flaming rays of the sun. They recieved the same treatment by Alexander's hands.

                  Finally Alexander traveled to the land of the Two Mountains. The backward peoples of this region were harrassed by Gog and Magog: the forces of chaos and destruction. Between the Two Mountains Alexander built a wall of iron blocks, joining the blocks with molten copper or brass. Gog and Magog were not able to scale the wall nor could they destroy it.


                  http://www.pothos.org/...

                  Call the world if you Please "The vale of Soul-making" Then you will find out the use of the world. - Keats

                  by republican with a small r on Tue Feb 07, 2006 at 07:56:15 PM PST

                  [ Parent ]

                  •  Correcting a typo: (none)
                    In the above post:

                    Replace:

                    Allah is a primitive form/re-interpretation of montheistic polytheism.

                    With:

                    Allah is a primitive form/re-interpretation of montheistic paganism.

                    Call the world if you Please "The vale of Soul-making" Then you will find out the use of the world. - Keats

                    by republican with a small r on Tue Feb 07, 2006 at 08:06:56 PM PST

                    [ Parent ]

                  •  This argument is tedious in the extreme (none)
                    If Alexander in the Quran is not the real Alexander, then why don't you use the Arabic and call him al-Iskandar?
                    •  going off on a tangent? (none)
                      If you wish to dispute the main argument, how about answering it, instead of going off on a tangent, or characterizing it as "tedious"?

                      Unless you are unable to dispute the main argument so all you have left are attempts to distract attention from it?

                      Especially as in the Koran Alexander is called Dhu'l-Karnayn (Encyclopaedia of Islam, New Edition, Vol. IV, 1978) and so if I made the mistake of referring to him as al-Iskandar you would simply pounce on that 'error' as well?

                      The reason to refer to Alexander as Alexander is that that is the name most people in the DailyKos audience would recognize him by.

                      In any event, I have no wish or desire to shake the faith of Muslims in their ideology/religon.  That would be pointless as faith is ultimately an emotional attachment to an ideology that is not grounded in reason.

                      I am simply presenting to an audience composed mostly of non-Muslims a point of view and line of reasoning that holds that Allah is not the same as the Christian god(s).

                      And as this Diary is no longer on the Recommended List and it is unlikely that anyone will read these late comments,

                      Have a pleasant evening / Good night.

                      Call the world if you Please "The vale of Soul-making" Then you will find out the use of the world. - Keats

                      by republican with a small r on Tue Feb 07, 2006 at 10:50:26 PM PST

                      [ Parent ]

                    •  Your logic proves my point (none)
                      If Alexander in the Quran is not the real Alexander, then why don't you use the Arabic and call him al-Iskandar?

                      By the way, your logic proves my point.

                      If the god in the Quran is not the real God (the Judeo/Christian Jehovah), then why don't you use the Arabic and call him Allah?

                      But wait, I was calling him Allah.

                      It was you who objected to that.

                      Fortunately, my argument does not make a distinction as to which god is the real god, as they are all attempts by finite human minds to perceive an infinite, and so none are more or less real than any other.

                      Call the world if you Please "The vale of Soul-making" Then you will find out the use of the world. - Keats

                      by republican with a small r on Tue Feb 07, 2006 at 11:00:39 PM PST

                      [ Parent ]

                      •  I personally call him Alexander (none)
                        whether the character in the Quran or the one history paints as reality. I only asked you a question.

                        I've found that no one responds to comments unless they have an edge, hence my manufactured indignation.

                        I thought you were going to bed, jerk!

                        •  I did go to bed, now I awake (none)
                          I respond to comments posted to my comments even if they don't have "an edge".

                          In fact, I appreciate thoughtful requests for more elaboration or information.  

                          Philosophy is very tedious I'm afraid.  It's why I decided not to major in philosophy - it was just too boring.  Now I have to dredge my memory for those little bits of knowledge and analytical techniques that stuck in my mind - and given that I would nod off to sleep while reading Wittgenstein, not much stuck.

                          Call the world if you Please "The vale of Soul-making" Then you will find out the use of the world. - Keats

                          by republican with a small r on Wed Feb 08, 2006 at 07:42:40 PM PST

                          [ Parent ]

                  •  Allah, Yaweh, and Jehovah and God (none)
                    in all the three religions refer to "the god of Abraham".  Since we are talking about one God and one Abraham, I am afraid you are wrong to say they are different.

                    By the way, the "primitive" adjective doesn't work well, since the Judaic version is MUCH older and is the basis for the Christian and Moslem writings about the same God.  How could it be "primitive" unless they all were?

                    •  later religons can be more "primitive" (none)
                      Progress is not a given in history.

                      Regression is possible.

                      Mohammed took from the Christian/Judaic myths various names and stories without understanding any of the theological constructions Jews and Christians had created over time.

                      Islam is concerned with outward displays of conformity - it is a strictly rule based religon.  You must be "seen" to conform.

                      The call to prayers is "come to prayer, come to success" and success is measured as worldly success.  The fact that Western Christian countries have overtaken Islamic countries in terms of material success is taken by many as a direct challenge to the truth of Mohammed's revelation. The earliest proof that Islam was the correct religon was the historical fact that those professing Islam conquered so much of the world.  

                      Now the "proof" of Islam's "truth", success, is no longer available and a spiritual crisis has emerged in the 20th century.

                      The meaning of jihad as an inward struggle was added by Sufis - and orthodox Sunnis regard Sufis as heretics.

                      Whereas in Christianity, the inward struggle is a central tenet of all of the denominations.

                      For a longer and better exposition of the differences between Judaism, Christianity, and Islam, read The Star of Redemption by Rosenzweig.

                      AS to the claim that Islam is an Abrahamaic religon, if you were going to start a new religon amongst a group of pagans -- it help to claim that you are NOT starting a NEW religon - simply rediscovering an OLD religon whose teachings were corrupted by the current practioners of it.

                      SO Muhammed claims that Allah has tried to reveal the truth over and over again - and each time the truth is corrupted by Satan.

                      Allah spoke to the Jews, and Abraham was a MUSLIM.  But his descendants corrupted the teachings of Abraham so Allah tried again.  Jesus was a MUSLIM.  And the followers of Jesus corrupted the teachings of Jesus.  So Allah tried again - this time through Mohammed.

                      And so now we know, because Khomeini tells us so, that when Jesus said, "Turn the other cheek" that those were the words of Satan.


                      Surely this cannot be the case. Jesus (pbuh), this great prophet of God, would never teach someone to turn the other cheek were he to be struck by an oppressor! Indeed, these are the words of Satan and not Jesus.

                      http://www.irib.ir/...

                      So, just because Mohammed claims to be worshiping the same god as the Christians and Jews, that is no reason for Christians or Jews to believe him.  They can decide if the god of Abraham would want Muslims to murder Jews wherever they are hiding.

                      The Hour [Resurrection] will not take place until the Muslims fight the Jews, and kill them. And the Jews will hide behind the rock and tree, and the rock and tree will say: 'O Muslim, O servant of Allah, there is a Jew behind me, come and kill him!
                      Hadith

                      Call the world if you Please "The vale of Soul-making" Then you will find out the use of the world. - Keats

                      by republican with a small r on Wed Feb 08, 2006 at 07:34:50 PM PST

                      [ Parent ]

                      •  Oops - typed too fast (none)
                        "Allah spoke to the Jews, and Abraham was a MUSLIM"

                        Technically, Jews did not yet exist when the God of Abraham spoke to Abraham.  According to the mythos, Jews descended from Abraham.  So Allah did not speak to the Jews, but to the ancestor (or father) of the Jews.  And this ancestor was Abraham - who according to Mohammed was a prophet of Allah and a Muslim.

                        Just as Alexander the Great was a Muslim.  See a pattern?  Mohammed was eager to claim that historical/mythical figures whose exploits were familiar to his local audience were also Muslims whose words/deeds were later corrupted by Satan.

                        And of course, that rhetorical trick is excellent just in case you might not accurately remember a detail of a biblical story.  If you preach a biblical story that you've taken from Christianity and then someone in the audience says, "Wait, that itinerant Christian preacher who came through last year told the story differently."  why you simply reply that the version in the Christian/Judaic testaments were corrupted by Satan, and your version is the "correct" version.

                        (Yes, my corrections may seem pedantic, but when you are trying to explain the intricacies of Judaism, Christianity, and Islam to Hindus, Hindus tend to notice and point out inconsistencies.)

                        Call the world if you Please "The vale of Soul-making" Then you will find out the use of the world. - Keats

                        by republican with a small r on Wed Feb 08, 2006 at 08:21:50 PM PST

                        [ Parent ]

          •  Do you have the exact quote (none)
            of Muhammad banning idolatry? I would be interested to see under what context was it spoken.
            •  Who gives a fuck what Muhammad (none)
              or any other myth "god" thinks...
              Reality please.
              •  Over one billion... (4.00)
                ...of your fellow human beings care.

                And for that matter, I do too, even though I'm not a Muslim.  Please sell your intolerance someplace else.

                •  it's you that's intolerant (none)
                  i think religous folk, muslim, whatever have a right to be here....apparently, because I don't fucking care about what ancient myth figures have to say about my morals, i don't have a right to voice that or be here? Your more than welcome to debate my aethiest values, or to tell me to fuck off...but to tell me that i need to "go someplace else" is ironic.
                  I'm not selling intolerance, science & data doesn't need to be sold, it just is.
                  •  It isn't about you... (none)
                    ...but have a modicum of respect for the beliefs of others.  I'm an atheist too.  But denigrating people for taking seriously the words of their Prophet is deeply wrong to me.  

                    Some other posters were having a useful conversation about the rules of the hadith, and how those rules impact the laws of Muslim countries and affect the present circumstance.  Your comment was derogatory, added nothing to their dialogue, and would make any person who is a Muslim deeply uncomfortable.

                    If you wish to refute religion, be my guest, although I doubt it will do you or anything much good.  But your comment doesn't refute religion.  Your comment tells people who do care about religion that they cannot talk about it in an open forum without having it denigrated by your opinion.  How wonderfully selfish of you.

                    •  real intolerance (none)
                      "Some other posters were having a useful conversation about the rules of the hadith, and how those rules impact the laws of Muslim countries and affect the present circumstance.  Your comment was derogatory, added nothing to their dialogue, and would make any person who is a Muslim deeply uncomfortable."

                      I agree my comment was derogatory, and it didn't add to their specific dialogue. However, part of my point was too make uptight, religous folk uncomfortable...since, they think anyone who doesn't believe like they do are GOING TO HELL!

                      http://islam.about.com/...
                      http://dying.about.com/...

                      Intolerance is violently protesting over cartoons, not being a smart ass blogger.

                  •  Easy, easy....... (none)
                    you can assert your rights without being belligerent toward the person you're talking to. I agree with you; I just think you oughta smooth out your feathers some. I know how you feel. That sort of thing infuriates me as well. But don't go burning this guy's embassy or his flag. Boycott his cheese if you must, I guess, but this discussion shouldn't be an invitation to a gunfight.

                    Things fall apart-the center cannot hold...The best lack all conviction While the worst are full of passionate intensity (-9.25\-7.54)

                    by kestrel9000 on Tue Feb 07, 2006 at 05:57:28 PM PST

                    [ Parent ]

                    •  agreed (none)
                      I guess after reading post after post of what's the prophet Muhammad think about this? Well, what does prophet Muhammad think about that? I just let my frustrations temporarily get the best of me.
                      In person, i'm always very tolerant of others religous belifs...it's just from my experiences, that's usually not good enough for most really religous folks....they either think your going to hell, eventually feel the need to "convert" you in some way, or both.
                      Whatever, my whole point being is that non religous folks extend themselves and go out of their way to make religous folks feel comfortable, while from my experiences anyway, it's RARELY recipricated...thus my venting statement "well who f***ing cares what Muhammad thinks."
                •  Well, the F-bomb (none)
                  kinda detracted from the comment, but I have to agree with the intent......when people's religious sensibilities are offended, it's their problem, and if they take it and make it mine, then it becomes MY problem, and I will deal with it as appropriate within the civil law of the society in which I live. Which means if they do a Fred Phelps and scream at me about how I'm going to hell, I laugh, step around them or push them aside if necessary (like to get my woman into the abortion clinic), but if they show up outside my home with a can of gasoline and a torch, then I go outside and meet them.
                  With a shotgun.

                  Things fall apart-the center cannot hold...The best lack all conviction While the worst are full of passionate intensity (-9.25\-7.54)

                  by kestrel9000 on Tue Feb 07, 2006 at 05:54:27 PM PST

                  [ Parent ]

                  •  Okay, but... (none)
                    ...you're conflating the actions of a few with all those who share the same basic framework of faith.

                    If Fred Phelps shows up at your home with a can of gasoline, you'll meet him with a shotgun.  Would you extend that to a Russian Orthodox who has no beliefs in common with Mr. Phelps except that Jesus is the son of God?

                    •  I hope I'm getting you.......... (none)
                      but if Madalyn Murray O'Hair and/or Anton LaVey showed up at my house with a gascan and a torch, I'd meet them with a shotgun too. Only now, I gotta shoot 'em in the head, 'cuz I saw Dawn of the Dead, and that's the only way to take the Living Dead out.
                      That goes for the Russian Orthodox too, or the Ba'hai, or the Scientologist, Thelemist, Santerian or wiccan, or anyone else who tries to burn my house down for any reason. I do not practice religious discrimination among those who try to do me harm. I defend myself by any means necessary. Including killing them if that is what the survival of my wife, my children or myself requires. Clear enough?
                      There's a diary up about "pansy liberals." The diarist originally used a different word than "pansy", but it offended too many people, so he changed it. BTAIM, it's a good one.

                      BTW, yours is a great diary. Recommended.

                      Things fall apart-the center cannot hold...The best lack all conviction While the worst are full of passionate intensity (-9.25\-7.54)

                      by kestrel9000 on Tue Feb 07, 2006 at 06:59:03 PM PST

                      [ Parent ]

              •  Mohammed was a prophet, not a God. (none)
            •  Idolatry (none)
               'Fight against the (the idolaters) until idolatry is no more and Allah's religion reigns supreme' (II.189 and VIII.40).

              And for some context:

              The Encyclopedia Americana International Edition, vol 16, pgs. 91-92


                  Jihad, an Arabic word meaning "struggle." As a religious duty theoretically laid upon all followers of Mohammed, jihad is based on the concept that the Islamic faith, since it is of universal validity, must be spread to all mankind, by force of arms if necessary. In classical Islam, jihad was to be directed against "people of the Book" (that is, possessors of authoritative sacred writings, above all Jews and Christians) until they submitted to the political authority of Islam, and against idolaters until they became Muslims. Sufi mystics, however, often considered jihad as a spiritual struggle against the evil within the self.

              Call the world if you Please "The vale of Soul-making" Then you will find out the use of the world. - Keats

              by republican with a small r on Tue Feb 07, 2006 at 04:07:21 PM PST

              [ Parent ]

    •  it's to keep you from noticing... (none)
      that religion doesn't have any bearing on the real world.  Therefore, the religious zealots (of all faiths) want you to ignore idols because they might remind you that you still live in the real world.  By demanding no idols, it keeps you focused on your internal, made up world of faith.  

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