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View Diary: My Hero Jihad (271 comments)

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  •  Yes, link (none)
    Where is the link?
    •  See link above.. (none)
      I would like to know if this is true.

      Jay, if you are here, I'd like your comments. If the intent was to inflame, "commissioned"...don't you think some liability is in order? Not art but propaganda.

      Is it time for new democratic consultants? No accountability, no money.

      by mattes on Wed Feb 08, 2006 at 08:08:25 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  Well, mattes... (none)
        ...here's the narrative of the cartoon story as I have pieced it together from various sources:

        Some Danish artists were asked to illustrate a children's book about Mohammed, and refused, for fear of their safety.  After Pim Fortyn and Theo Van Gogh's murders, this is understandable.  When the Danish newspaper heard about it, they commissioned some of the same illustrators and other artists to do the cartoons.  They deliberately wanted the cartoons to obey no limits of good taste or respect.  Rather, they felt angry that in their own country, one of the most liberal in the world, artists would fear to illustrate a children's book for concern over their lives.  And because they felt that artists were being pressured into self-censorship out of fear, they felt that stepping clearly over the line would force the Danish community to confront the chill that had come over their right to free expression.

        Now, I don't think that is wise, but I do think that it is right.

        As far as the link goes, I think it is utter bullshit.  First of all, the Danes are some of the most liberal people in Europe.  I find the notion that they desire some "clash of civilizations" preposterous.  I also think we are starting to see just how much this crisis is a creation of certain interests in the Middle East - I'd like to bring your attention to this story, which is a scan of the cartoons published in an Egyptian paper in October.  Funny how the immediate outrage then didn't even make the news.  Because it didn't happen.

        Second, I think the article makes its bias abundantly clear by repeatedly suggesting that the embrace of free speech by the Danes is posturing because they don't similarly welcome Holocaust denial.  That's simply absurd.  The writer's own insistence about making it about the Holocaust, and about Zionists makes this preposterous to me.

        Daniel Pipes is a scumfuck, there is no denying that.  But this is a ridiculous conspiracy theory, backed up by no evidence, making outlandish claims.  And there is clearly an end that the article seeks - to lay the blame, and the target of Muslim anger, squarely on the backs of the Jews.  Reprehensible, in my opinion.  To suggest that free speech is "non-existent" in Europe because they will not support Holocaust revisionism is a loathsome lie.  The entire premise of the article is that Jews desire open war with Muslims.  How ridiculous.

        Thanks for asking for my input.  I hope you don't consider that a mistake.  =)

        •  No, mistake. I want your input, (none)
          even if sometimes we don't agree. What I do believe is that both sides (whatever the original intent) are now using these photos to inflame the situation.  Also bothers me that Bush hired Daniel Pipes for anything. Somewhere around here is a story about how the same paper refused to print some obscene Christian drawings.

          Is it time for new democratic consultants? No accountability, no money.

          by mattes on Wed Feb 08, 2006 at 06:00:15 PM PST

          [ Parent ]

          •  Well, I appreciate that... (none)
            I don't care much that Bush hired Pipes, even though he is a scumfuck - it isn't like Bush knows anyone who isn't or would give someone who wasn't a job.

            The story about the Christian drawings is irrelevant for two reasons: first, they were unsolicited (in 2004, a year before they decided to print the Muhammed cartoons), and second, they aren't news.  Obscene art like 'Piss-Christ' involving Christian iconography is commonplace.  What makes the cartoons news is the self-censorship of the illustrators, and the fact that no one felt that this should be done.  There is a school of thought in the arts that taboo-breaking is a virtue, and by that standard, these a virtuous in a way that art that denigrates Christianity or Judaism is not.

            Now, those are not my positions, but I understand the logic behind them.  You are correct about how the cartoons are being used by some now, but that does not impact why they were printed.  Question: do you believe that the paper should have forseen how their purpose would be used, and if so, did they have an obligation to self-censor?

            P.S.- I put out another diary today on a totally unrelated subject if you have a chance to drop by it.

            •  For a "free society" to function (none)
              there absolutely has to be self-censorship. "I" could have predicted what would happen, how could they have not? There is no doubt in my mind that someone knew what the outcome of printing these cartoons would be. The very fact that the cartoons were solicited is offense, and ONE drawing could have made the point....why print so many? These hypocrites would not illustrate a children's book for fear of retaliation but would draw something intented to offend?? And what kind of a person goes to write a book about a religion for CHILDREN and then gets angry when they find out a religious teaching of said religion prohibits the illustrations and then takes the story to the press. Bullshit. Too convienently, the book was not intented for adults because they had to make a point about "illustrating Muhammad". SO WRITE the childrens book and illustrated from the perspective of Mohammad and explain/teach about idolatry. No need to show Mohammad.
              The whole story stinks to me....(you asked).

              Is it time for new democratic consultants? No accountability, no money.

              by mattes on Wed Feb 08, 2006 at 06:43:52 PM PST

              [ Parent ]

              •  Wow... (none)
                ...okay.  I didn't mean to get your dander up.

                Putting aside the first aspect of your post for a second, these aren't the writers of the book.  And from what I understand, it was a book intended for Danish children to teach them about religious diversity.  I'm not sure that the publishers of the book knew (or cared) that according to most Muslims, artistic renderings of the Prophet are forbidden.  But the book was published, without the illustrations, and is unrelated to the issue except that it was the cause for the newspaper to commission the cartoons.

                To some extent, this is all a tangential effect of a different problem.  The world has gotten smaller, and media that used to cater to a small audience is now worldwide.  So where is the line?  Do we make characters in American television shows not wear miniskirts because this will offend more traditional societies who can get these shows on satellite?  Because that is a real issue.

                But before we go on, I want to ask a question: why is self-censorship essential?  What good has censorship in any form achieved?  And this question has real personal impact for me: I've helped make television shows and movies with horrific violence and full-frontal nudity.  Was that wrong of me?

                •  LOL...I could feel my blood (none)
                  pressure going up.
                  I still think it was stupid for the editors to do this in the middle of a war.

                  Self-censorship is about knowing your audience. I don't personally like violence, shown to young people it desensitizes them. These are complicated issues. BTY, before being in books I managed a fortune 100 companies' video and meeting planning department and my sister owns a film equipment company in LA and Mexico City. Are you in LA? Full-frontal nudity, eh? Hope is not just girls!

                  I've been reading about the whole Google censorship thing....what I think is that because of our communication technologies, it's going to be very hard to stay insulated in any fashion for long. These are just band aids, I have read alot of SF, and who knows where we are going, it's unpredictable long term. I must admit I was quite the prude most of my life, now I don't know what I think, I take it step by step...then revise.
                  For some reason I have become addicted to the political scene and how it relates to world history, especially the middle east. DK is a fountain of information. I am glad I found it.

                  Is it time for new democratic consultants? No accountability, no money.

                  by mattes on Wed Feb 08, 2006 at 08:09:42 PM PST

                  [ Parent ]

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