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View Diary: South Dakota Moves To Ban "ALL" Abortions (271 comments)

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  •  If your values are different (none)
    express them at the ballot box.  I will see how many votes you get when you start advocating for legalization of incest and polygamy.
    •  Strawman (none)
      No one is talking about incest or polygamy.

      Minority rights should not be subject to the ballot box--that is why they are "minority" rights.

      Go put gays and adulterers in jail and see how many votes you get--although the idea is so absurd, it's hard to contemplate

      Bottom line:  I detest what you stand for.  I live in country that is not your country.  You want to hijack my country.  I will fight you.  Others will fight you.   And God help you if you are ever remotely successful in trying to bring your version of sexual morality into our lives.

      •  Why is that a strawman? (none)
        You said what people do in their bedrooms cannot be legislated.  Icest generaly occurs in people's bedrooms.  So does polygamy.  So we can't legislate those?  And if we can what makes that moral judgement any different from anyother moral judgment regarding sexuality?

        Minority rights in the end are always subject to the ballot box.  Witness the reaction across the country to the Goodridge decision.

        I do not want to put gays or adulterers in jail.  Though I think that the party committing adultery should pay more/get les during the divorce proceedings.  If for nothing else then for violating a contract freely entered into.  But just because I think that laws banning sodomy are ass-backwars does not make them unconstitutional.

        And like it or not sexual morality will always be legislated.  Live with it. Some states will set age of consent at 14, other at 16, yet others at 18, and yet others will use a sliding scale.  These are strictly moral judgment calls.  And the constitution says nothing about these calls.  They are stritly for the people to make.

        And it is you who wants to hijack the country absent any popular consent.  It is the "living constitutionalists" who feel that the judiciary can abolish death penalty despite the fact that it is explicitly provided for in the Constitution.  It is the "living constitutionalists" who want to remove "under G-d" from teh pledge despite the fact that an overwhelming majority of Americans support keping it there.  It is the "living constitutionalists" who want to mandate government fnding of abortion despite public's opposition and despite the fact that the Constitution does not require the government to fund anything at all, much less a specific program.

        •  Religious motivation? (none)
          It appears you are an Orthodox Jew.  True?

          You seem upset at the issues re the Pledge, various issues re abortion and the like.  You appear very concerned with outcomes, no?  

          I have yet to meet an "Originalist" who was not motivated by their religious beliefs to (in my opinion) impose their beliefs on others.  Or stated another way, I have yet to meet an Originalist who was not intensely religious.  If the Originalist position was an "objective" position, then why do all these Originalists devolve into religious issues?  An Originalist who was an atheist would be a refreshing change.

          It is all about religious zealots finding a rationale to impose their beliefs on others, and Originalism fits the bill.

          You misstate the formulation re sex, and it is correctly stated thusly:  What consenting ADULTS do in the privacy of their bedroom is no one else's business.  Look above and you will see that I talked about ADULTS.  

          Most cases where incest or polygamy is prosecuted involve children.  In fact, I know of no effort to prosecute such cases where no child is involved.  

          Live your life the way you want, and I will do likewise.

          •  Nope (none)
            I am a Jew, but not Orthodox.  I am religious but not "intensly."  But I fail to see what that has to do with anything.  My motivation is limited powers of the unelected judiciary and expanded powers of the people.  Not my religion.  The Pledge issue was brought up is not because my religious beliefs require me to say it (indeed if I were an Orthodox Jew, saying God's name in vain (i.e. other than prayer) would be sinful).  It was brough up because  the 9th Circuit ruled the Pledge unconstitutional despite the fact that Washington added words "so help me God" to the Oath, despite the fact that Congress opens each day with a prayer, despite the fact that courts open with "God save this honorable court," etc.  There is just no legal basis for declaring the Pledge as is unconstitutional.  So, I am not concerned with outcome.  I am concerned with getting there.  If there is an argument that the COnstitution as originally understood requires a result that is politically unpalatable to me, so be it.  You apparently make no such distinction.  You seem to think that Constitution can be molded and remolded to achieve that which you could not achieve at the ballot box.

            Second, incest is or can be practiced by adults as well as children.  Recently there was a case of Michigan (I believe) couple who were "married" but who also were brother and sister.  They were prosecuted.  They were adults.  Utah polygamists are all adults.  So, the whole "it's children" argument is nonsense.

            •  Correction (none)
              It was a Wisconsin couple and they were sentenced to 8 and 5 years respectively and their conviction was upheld on June 22, 2005 by the 7th Circuit.


              So your "it's just children" argument is nonsense

            •  G-d? (none)
              You seem VERY concerend about a lawsuit that was defeated. "Under God" remains in the pledge and never ceased being part of the pledge as recited in school.  I know of no elected Democrat who wanted the pledge changed.  Micheal Newdow, the plaintiff who brought the suit, appears to be one of the few who was really concerned about this.  Yet, you and those concerned about religious issues, go on and on about a lawsuit you WON.

              There is a perfectly logical basis for ruling "under god" in the Pledge unconstitutional:  It discriminates against Hindus and Buddhists because they do not believe in God. Very simple.  Government cannot pick winners and losers in the religious sphere.  

              Of course, any argument can be taken to its logical extreme, which is what happened here.  No one really cares about this issue except the religious loons who desperately crave the government's seal of approval.  And, as a Liberal, I am able to see issues in other terms than  the binary, black-or-white world of absolutism inhabited by most conservatives.  For me, no harm, no foul.  The Pledge is virtually meaningless, or perhaps better stated, quite vanilla--so the government's preference for Western religion over Eastern religion is also virtually meaningless.

              As to your assertion that you are not particulary religious, I don't believe you.  You have yet to admit you voted for George Bush, and I had to drag it out of you that you were advocating criminal penalties for abortion.  Becasue you are less than candid in expressing your views, I assume you are similarly trying to downplay your religious views.  Your obsession with the Pledge, as well as other telltale tracks, betray you.  

              As to the incest prosecution among adults, I assume that the example you cite is the exception rather than the rule.  If prosecutors start investigating any seemingly overly-friendly or affectionate relationships betweeen adult fathers and daughters or siblings, then you would have TROUBLE on your hands.

              As to the prosecution of the Utah polygamists, no, there were not all adults.  With respect to recent prosecutions, you may be thinking of Tom Green, one of the few people prosecuted for polygamy in recent memory.  He "married" underage girls.  

              During a weeklong trial, prosecutor David Leavitt attempted to portray Green as a man driven by an outsized ego to marry teen-age girls.

              Utah by and large looks the other way when it comes to polygamy.  The only reason they decided to prosecute Green was the involvement of young girls and the desire to spruce up Utah's image.  

              •  Well, (none)
                First of all, get your facts straight.  "we" (whatever that means) didn't "win" the Newdow lawsuit.  It was dismissed on a technicality.  If you havd been following the news, since then a District judge in California again ruled for Newdow in a new case that did not have same procedural stumbling block.

                You can believe me or not, that's your choice.  You are obviously misrepresenting my views on abortion.  Everyone (or almost everyone) is in favor of criminal penalties for certain types of abortion.  Show me a large group of people who favor abortion literally up until the moment of birth?!  And if you think that those are not OK, then I guess you too want to "criminalize" abortions, huh?  I am in favor of legalized early abortions but with some restrictions.  I think majority of American public agrees with me.

                As for the Wisconsin case, of course it is an exception.  Duh!  Brothers and sisters having sex is always an exception.  I don't know of many siblings who want to fuck each other.  Do you?  And do you REALLY think teh public would be up in arms if the prosecutors brought cases against father-daughter (adult) sexual relationships?!  You must be living in a loony toons world.  The public would be lining up to stone the father (and possibly the daughter).

                Finally, in Utah, marrying "teenage girls" per se is not illegal, because the age of consent for marriage in Utah is 15 provided there is parental consent and court approval or 16 with parental consent only.  And the fact that Utah and other states "look the other way" means only that they have bigger fish to fry, not that these laws are unconstitutional or do not enjoy public's support.

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