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View Diary: INDIANA Proposed Law: "Life Begins at Conception, Fetus Feels Pain" (188 comments)

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  •  I went to see James Carville speak (4.00)
    the other night at SIUC...

    when it got to be q&a time I asked him (since no one ELSE there was concerned at all about women)....why, when 70% of Americans are pro-choice, is it SO hard for Democrats to come out and speak honestly about reproductive freedom? Why is it that they don't push for comprehensive and honest sex education that would help prevent the # of abortions in the U.S.?

    In his answer he told me that with Alito on the court, Roe was gone....and that if we wanted to protect women, we'd have to focus on winning elections and that was all we could do to prevent rights from being taken away.

    A terribly depressing answer....and this is another terrible development.

    When Roe is gone and my rights are gone...I swear, I'm filing for refugee status in New Zealand or Canada...

    •  Women...and gay folks... (4.00)
      are apparently expendable. We don't seem to matter...'s fucking seems like I went to sleep 6 years ago and woke up in 1945.

    •  Carville didn't answer your question. (4.00)

         And the "we need to focus on winning elections" is a complete cop-out of an attitude. It's a total abdication of leadership.

         Carville's a DLC stiff just like the rest of the beltway cocktail crowd. He's no asset to the Dems.


      Of course Republicans oppose abortion. If you kill them in the womb, they're not available to be killed on the battlefield.

      by Buzzer on Sat Feb 11, 2006 at 12:42:50 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  To say I was disappointed (4.00)
        in him would be an understatement.

        I was disgusted. HE is exactly what is wrong with our party...I had to see it in person to believe it.

        He's also a pretty shitty speaker...his speech was disorganized...he did a LOT of dodging the question...not just mine either...

        and he had a LOT of missed opportunities for things he COULD have said, but didn't...things that could have convinced middle of the road folks...

        it was depressing to see him really....

        •  Same syndrome... (4.00)

    my local party.

             A few months ago a friend of mine was sharing a few beers with a former high-level local Dem party official, and the subject of Alito came up. The former official's attitude was: "the pugs won, they can do what they want, and all we can do is roll over and take it up the ass until we win again". He suggested that fighting was futile and counterproductive.

            My friend was stunned. This guy had been a Democratic leader, and his attitude was one of complete impotence. Upon hearing that, my friend and I understood far more clearly how our county had gone from deep blue to solid red within a generation (while this guy was leader).

            But we're working to rebuild. Watch this space -- we're getting a new local Dem infrastructure built, with the inputs, cooperation, and tech savvy of a number of young, hungry, energetic local Dems. We WILL turn this around, and the Carvilles of the world will become even more irrelevant than they are now...

          Of course Republicans oppose abortion. If you kill them in the womb, they're not available to be killed on the battlefield.

          by Buzzer on Sat Feb 11, 2006 at 12:59:55 PM PST

          [ Parent ]

          •  As if Repugs will approve Dems' 98% of judgeships (none)
            ... when/if fair elections are ever allowed to take place again, that is.

            These are the same thugs that saw nothing wrong with running war hero Max Cleland out of his seat by slandering his war record and branding him a traitor.

            Oh yeah, the GOP will approve liberal judges with the same stand aside comity as the Dems did the activist extremist judicial kickline that danced its way in with barely a peep of proper vetting about impartiality.

            (Note: I don't give a shit about leanings. I'm concerned about judicial impartiality, qualification, ethics and that a proper vetting has occurred, incl. advice and consent and, eg, no douchebaggery like STONEWALLING of material and end runs around the congressional role.)

            Meta Legume:? Eat! Dance! Fight! Resist!

            by Peanut on Sat Feb 11, 2006 at 02:20:32 PM PST

            [ Parent ]

        •  Carville and Matlin are like Siamese twins (none)
          They are part of the D.C. political geek show

          "See them walk, see them talk, see them crawl on their bellies like a reptiles, come on in, folks! It's the DC Follies, where you can see hillbillies from Arkansas and Louisiana (who should have gone back to the mountains) entertain you, confound you, and bewilder you!  They'll do it forever as long as you pay to see them.  Come on in!"

          In the end, we will remember not the words of our enemies, but the silence of our friends. M.L.King, 1929-1968

          by captainlaser on Sat Feb 11, 2006 at 02:51:23 PM PST

          [ Parent ]

      •  Exactly!! (none)
        And he and Begala, like Bayh, demean Dems publicly in order to highlight their "greatness"!!

        It's time to be a Democrat!

        by annefrank on Sat Feb 11, 2006 at 12:52:59 PM PST

        [ Parent ]

        •  I SO wanted to ask that question... (none)
          to point out that Dems should stop insulting/criticizing one another publicly, but no one had brought up any women's issues...luckily, in non-answering my question about choice...he did say some positive things about gay he sort of dodged one question and answered another I had...but still, I figured I should stand up for my fellow sisters since no one else was...and the only other people asking questions after me were men (so I assumed...and ended up being right...that they weren't going to ask about that).
      •  Yes! Winning elections dont matter at all! (none)
        and its more like 60%, not 70% that are pro choice (and only like 25% which are for unrestricted abortions...i think thats basically what the 2004 exit poll breakdown was)
        •  I didn't say it didn't matter... (none)

             ...but it's become too easy an excuse for high-level Dems to hide behind in an attempt to explain away their attitude of sad impotence.

              When the Republicans were cornered after the 1992 elections, they didn't curl into a fetal position and whine that "we need to win elections before we can do anything" -- they fought Bill Clinton, fought him hard, and successfully blocked a ton of his initiatives, notably health-care reform. They filibustered. They cranked up the megaphones to drum up opposition. They OBSTRUCTED.

            And their penalty for all that "negativity" was sweeping election victories in 1994.

            The Dems, sad to say, still have no clue how to play the game.


          Of course Republicans oppose abortion. If you kill them in the womb, they're not available to be killed on the battlefield.

          by Buzzer on Sat Feb 11, 2006 at 01:19:41 PM PST

          [ Parent ]

    •  Winning elections? We would if they counted votes (none)
      Kerry conceded while voters were still lined up to vote due to nat'l RNC thuggery targeting groups for disenfranchisement.
      Constructively trying to prevent that strategy thuggery in future elections has only resulted in being brushed off by the perpetually losing 'strategists' who want to frame and reframe bullshit instead of meaningfully attacking voter disenfranchisement.
      Getting told to go out there and win elections -- what an insult and lame fucking copout.

      Meta Legume:? Eat! Dance! Fight! Resist!

      by Peanut on Sat Feb 11, 2006 at 01:41:03 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

    •  None of us knows for sure ... (4.00) this issue will play out when the next handful of abortion cases reaches the Supreme Court. Could still be 5-4 in favor of Roe.

      I suspect the first round of decisions will be nibbles that give the states more and more say. As we all know, the states have been doing their own nibbling for decades now, refusing to pay for poor women's abortions, restricting clinics and other providers in any way they can get away with and generally pushing the envelope regarding those restrictions, finding new legislative wording when old wording is struck down.

      Since the first laws liberalizing abortion in Colorado were passed in 1967, my own view as a man has been that it's up to a woman what to do about her pregnancy and I'll do whatever I can to assist her in making whatever choice she wishes - whether that's going to term or seeking an abortion. That's why I joined 14 other men and women in establishing the nation's first not-for-profit abortion clinic in 1975. That's why I've stood in front of clinics in Denver and Los Angeles in solidarity with women of choice being harassed by the "culture of lifers." That's why I've contributed thousands of dollars to NARAL and Planned Parenthood over the past decades. That's why I've never voted for a candidate for high office or low who was anti-choice.

      As the options continue to shrink, it's up to us - women and men - to figure a practical way - if a Supreme Court decision does fully overturn Roe (which I think unlikely unless Bush gets another anti-choice justice on the high bench) - for women to continue to have access to safe abortions.

      That may mean a state-by-state fight, it might mean setting up an underground railway to clinics in Canada, it might mean smuggling in RU 486, or other illegal methods. Naturally, any guerrilla techniques would not put an end to the need to do our part in dragging the Congress and the Court back toward the pro-choice side of things, which we have to be doing anyway. But that will take a long time, and obviously there will be hundreds of thousands of women who simply can't wait for that political process - with its uncertain outcome - to play out. They will need practical solutions to their predicaments. It's up to all of us who are adamantly pro-choice to come up with such solutions.

      •  Yeah...I've been thinking about (none)
        the ways to do this. People smuggle drugs into this country EVERY it can't be that hard to get RU 486 and huge stocks of PLAN B...

        Thanks for your hard work, Meteor Blades...without your help in the past and present...things would surely be worse today...

        some days it's hard not to feel like we'll never be able to win without having to revisit the battle again later.

        •  There was a brief time, 30 years ago ... (4.00)
          ...when it seemed we had won this battle. And then the right began their assault - both legal and illegal, peaceful and violent - to turn back the clock. We've got a tough fight on our hands, and too many complacent people, and too many unwilling Democrats. But I am convinced we will win, ultimately.
      •  Yeah - that or Lysistrata (none)
        If I had a daughter, I would tell her not to have intercourse with a man unless she was in a physical, emotional, and financial position to take care of whatever ensued.  Part of "physical" means being in a location where she could secure a safe abortion.  "Financial" means being able to afford an abortion, a pregnancy (if she chose to adopt out the child) including loss of income, medical bills, etc., or to raise a child, alone, to adulthood.

        Condoms break.  Contraception fails.  Some men are wonderful to their partners when an unwanted pregnancy occurs; don't depend on it.  Be verrrrrry careful.  Enjoy your sexuality, make love with men if you want, but get creative when it comes to penetration.  Explore the world of battery-operated toys.  They can't make you pregnant.

        Radical?  Maybe.  These are radical times.  Women (and Meteor Blades) can't do this alone.  Call it an Incentive Plan.

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