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View Diary: Sunday Talk - "Fake 'Da Nation" (185 comments)

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  •  I disagree totally... (none)
    How many other Dems go on talk shows and call for Cheney to be removed from office if he told Scooter to out Plame?  I didn't see "This Week," but I'd be shocked if Biden did.

    So Dean had a couple of Freudian slips, and you feel that he didn't defend HRC strongly enough.  He pushed the main point that needs to be pushed, however.  Anyone remotely familiar w/ Rove's MO KNOWS that he will try to spin eavesdropping from a negative into a positive.  

    The Rethug party line is already emerging--we want to protect the American people, and the Dems don't, so we're eavesdropping on terrorists and thwarting potential attacks as a result.  There are some signs that the strategy is already getting traction, esp since we know that a # of Dems will let themselves get caught in this trap.  Plame is the one surefire way to thwart this strategy.

    The VP is charged w/ directing one of his subordinates to disclose the identity of a covert agent in wartime.  As Dean pointed out, if the charges are true (and we all have a pretty good idea that they are), then our VP has essentially committed treason.  Dean expressly compared Cheney to Aaron Burr, and he expressly called for Cheney's removal from office if the charges are true.

    Dean handled that issue perfectly.  He said that he was reserving judgment until the facts came in, but he also said what his judgment would be if the facts came in a way that we all know that they will.  He was firm and decisive as to that judgment.

    Just as it was in 2002 and 2004, "national security" will be a critical issue this fall--there's simply no way around that fact.  The tables must be turned against the Rethugs on this issue, accordingly, and Dean showed the best way to do so today.  Given his current position, his handling of that issue is far more important than anything that he could possibly say about HRC.

    Some men see things as they are and ask why. I see things that never were and ask why not?

    by RFK Lives on Sun Feb 12, 2006 at 11:28:42 AM PST

    [ Parent ]

    •  I've already (none)
      conceded that his points about Cheney were on point. But technically, he didn't call for the Vice President to step down...he repeatedly called for the PRESIDENT to step down, to the point that it was comical.

      If you think his performance today was good, you're drinking too much kool-aid.

      The Freudian slips aren't just a "so what" they completely legitimize the Republicans lame accusations that all we're focused on is blaming the president.

      It looked terrible.

      •  He mistakenly said, IIRC... (none)
        "president" twice when he meant to say VP.  I also recall that he correctly said VP 3 or 4 other times.  I'd have to read a transcript to be sure.

        Dean made the same verbal gaffe twice in one interview.  SO WHAT?  W makes more verbal gaffes EVERY time he tries to speak in public.  Gore and Kerry, at their worst, express themselves better than W does at his best.  Hell, Carter and Mondale could both express public policy positions much more clearly than Reagan ("trees cause pollution") ever could.

        If the R's are going to start making verbal gaffes an effective new line of attack, we're in deeper s**t than we previously realized.  I recall my mother teaching me something about people living in glass houses when I was a kid.

        The most important thing, by far, about the interview is that Dean placed Cheney's fitness for office on the national agenda.  Who else did that this w/e?  Did Harman or Daschle do it on MTP?  How about Biden on This Week?  I know that Joementum didn't do it on his little lovefest w/ Hannity.

        Howard Dean is one of the best things to happen to the Dems in years.  He understands how Rove altered the contemporary political terrain, and, unlike the vast majority of the Beltway Dems, he has come up w/ effective means for fighting on that terrain.  His doing so is a hell of a lot more important than 2 verbal screw-ups he made today.  


        Some men see things as they are and ask why. I see things that never were and ask why not?

        by RFK Lives on Sun Feb 12, 2006 at 12:29:21 PM PST

        [ Parent ]

        •  It wasn't twice (none)
          it was more like three or four times. And I'm not even sure he ever actually correctly said "vice president," I think it might have been schieffer who was the only one to get it correct.

          You can think what you want, I'm telling you my impression, it was distracting and ridiculous.

          I'm not denying that Dean is great for the party, but that doesn't mean a little constructive criticism isn't warranted. The man isn't great in interviews, he needs to do more prep.

          And calling for Cheney to step down is NOT a substitute for being able to talk about what the Democrats ARE doing. He spend the entire time talking about what we SHOULD be doing. It's passive, and it allow the republicans to continue to say that we have no agenda and aren't getting anything done. We all know it's a bunch of lies, but I just don't understand why the Dem leadership has such a hard time articulating it.

          All you've done is argue how great Dean is for calling on the vice president to step down. You haven't even bothered to deal with the other points I made.

          You're right, Dean is great for the party. But measuring success against other Dems who have failed miserable at this (by making staements like "he's the best thing to happen to this party") is not good enough.

          •  "The first VP since Aaron Burr"... (none)
            to commit such an act in wartime.  I KNOW that he got "VP" correct there (Burr never was prez), and I recall him getting it correct a couple of other times.  Both of us would have to see the transcript to be sure.

            Whether Dean correctly identified Cheney's office 2 times out of 5 or 3 times out of 5 is one of the silliest points I've ever seen on this board.  Yes, Dean screwed up twice, and he may've even screwed up 3 times.  WHO CARES?

            I can think of few other issues than Cheney's fitness for office that are more important right now.  We've been getting the ever-loving s**t kicked out of us on "national security" the last 2 election cycles, and Rove's already made it clear that he plans of using the same playbook this cycle.  The VP, who has exercised extraordinary powers in that field in this WH, committed treason if he told Scooter to out Plame.  As Dean CLEARLY said (he didn't flub that line), Plame was outed for purely political reasons.  If the trail leads back to Cheney, BushCo's credibility on their flagship issue has taken a mortal hit.

            It's also a serious policy issue as well.  Plame was outed to silence others as much as she was outed to punish Wilson.  Of the many scary things about this WH, its repeated silencing of dissent is its scariest.

            So Dean didn't defend HRC strongly enough for her tastes.  I've always gotten the impression that HRC is a big girl who is more than capable enough of defending herself.  I also wonder whether the most visible "angry" male Dem should be the one who vouching for the emotional stability of the most visible "angry" female Dem.

            To borrow a pet term of this site's, "framing" is a key job of any party chair.  Dean did an excellent job of framing today.

            Some men see things as they are and ask why. I see things that never were and ask why not?

            by RFK Lives on Sun Feb 12, 2006 at 01:34:33 PM PST

            [ Parent ]

            •  Silly? (none)
              Fine if you think the point is silly, but I'm telling you how it looked to me.

              And yes, framing is important, care take a guess at how that interaction will get framed over and over and over again by the Republicans as they now have plenty of tape of Dean not being able to keep his message straight about who is or isn't responsible for the Plame leak?

              You can call it a silly point if you want, but we've been getting our asses kicked by "silly points" over and over again. We've got to stop helping them out, and we've got to be honest about how the message comes across. You can sit here on DKos rationalizing why his performance was fine, but the Republicans have tape of him looking and sounding like a fool.

              •  There are 5 years of... (none)
                tapes of W sounding like a fool in office--plus another year's worth from the 2000 campaign.  Hell, there's an entire calendar containing 365 "Bushisms"--I bought one for my daughter for Xmas.  After the GOP attacks Dean for a couple of slips of the tongue, perhaps Cheney can then attack the Dems for not being sufficiently conscious of safe quail hunting techniques.

                Some men see things as they are and ask why. I see things that never were and ask why not?

                by RFK Lives on Sun Feb 12, 2006 at 03:27:32 PM PST

                [ Parent ]

                •  See (none)
                  that's my point. The answer to mis-steps cannot be to point to other's mis-steps. Do you realize the standard you just set? We have to set the bar high, not low, if we expect to win elections.

                  W gets away with sounding like an idiot because  he has an entire empire of spinmasters ready and waiting to convince the public that up is down and white is black. Howard Dean has no such luxury.

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