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  •  is it about time that we start (3.00)
    taking Rawstory with a grain of salt?

    Aren't they the ones who promised every day that Karl Rove was minutes from being indicted and that Cheney was about to fall as well?

    Republicans aren't evil. They're just wrong.

    by AnnArborBlue on Mon Feb 13, 2006 at 09:36:54 AM PST

    •  Steve Clemons (4.00)
      of The Washington Note has been working with RawStory on this. More in an earlier diary here.

      'You can't begin to imagine how effective the Big Lie is.' N. Mailer 'TNatD'

      by jorndorff on Mon Feb 13, 2006 at 09:46:16 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  should I delete? (none)
        I examined the comment section and the diary, this rawstory is linked to in the comments section. Also it's eluded to in the body of the diary.

        I've got to admit this diary has less analysis than the previous diary in your link. When I posted this one I hadn't seen the rawstory link in the comments. Sorry guys.

      •  damn.... (none)
        ...what a combo.  Rawstory is borderline Enquirer-esque, while Clemons is NAILS with respect to credibility, objectivity, caution, and accuracy.  Cannot imagine these two polar opposites coming together, but if it works, it should be outstanding.

        We were promised a democracy, sold an oligarchy, and ended up with a kakistocracy...

        by topicalstorm on Mon Feb 13, 2006 at 09:57:31 AM PST

        [ Parent ]

        •  link to the Clemons (none)
          story on Washington Note now in the update.
        •  The Enquirer... (none)
          ...shouldn't be used as a poor example of fact-checking.  They may rot minds, but they do so accurately.
        •  re: Clemons (none)
 might want to pay closer attention to Clemons...and read him more criticaly..

          He has become...somewhat...influenced, shall we say, by his new position with the New American institute...I think he has lost his bullshit meter.

          His reporting use to be very good, but there is now a slight "this and that" and a slight "self ego thing" and a slight "since I am a DC insider now and on the board of the new American Inst.I can't badmouth my friends or point out who is bad or good, cause we insiders are all in this together" type of thing..

          Hypocrisy in anything may deceive the cleverest and most penetrating man, but the least wide-awake of children recognizes it....

          by Cal45 on Mon Feb 13, 2006 at 07:46:36 PM PST

          [ Parent ]

    •  good point (none)
      That's why I said it's substantial, it's not just a teaser. They have "According to current and former intelligence officials.." in the piece. Maybe it is BS, we'll see how it develops in the media.
    •  Agreed. All too frequently .... (none)
      ...the source is not trustworthy. If this does turn out to be true, however, it's precisely what a lot of us have quietly thought might be the ironic case.

      Indeed, since Iran has been said to have "rolled up" U.S. intelligence assets inside the country on three occasions, we are compelled to wonder whether one of those times came as a result of Plame being outed. How much harm could her outing have caused if those Iranian "assets" are now dead and buried somewhere?

      •  3 times, I wondered also (none)
          I first saw that here at dkos a few weeks ago and thought to look out for that as some 'fact'
        i'd missed.
        The only one I recall was when a CIA employee, in Langley iirc, sent an email that had more  addresses  than he/she thought and it contained names and addresses of assets. I think it was in Risen's book.
            The second probably was the story about Brewster-Jennings operatives being 'rolled up' by many intelligence agencies, so Iran probably was one of those. This was the result of Novak's second article naming Brewster-Jennings as Plame's company. I think it was also Wayne Madsen who wrote about this, and in the context of what the damage report from the CIA was about. I probably have a link to it, back when the story got hot, and I think I mentioned it in Nov. 2005, since that was when I signed up here.
            So was the third time when Chalabi spilled to Tehran that the NSA could read their code, as commented by SCFog further down?
            As to Wayne Madsen, his stories seem to come from current and ex-intell people, and are probably representative of fact and disinformation.  To dismiss him offhand the way some do may be a good principle for people who need their truth to be vetted by CNN or Time.
           As to B-Jennings, so far, from Madsen and others, so far B-Jngs have been reported to be:
        • involved with Aramco in Saudi Arabia
        • involved in intercepting VX gas shipment from Turkey into Iraq
        • involved in intercepting and purchasing black market nukes in the 'stans
        • involved with tracking WMD's into IRAN as well as IRAQ
           These are just what I've seen mostly written about here at dkos. As long as we remember to expect active disinformation as well as speculation and real reporting we'll be fine, heh.

        Somebody, do something, I got kids I care about, fer crying out loud!

        by KenBee on Mon Feb 13, 2006 at 02:27:42 PM PST

        [ Parent ]

    •  uh, Rove WAS (4.00)
      minutes away from being indicted.  Remember, he was saved from indictment at the 11th hour.  No way rawstory could have seent that coming......(to borrow from Condi).

      He may look like an idiot and talk like an idiot but don't let that fool you. He really is an idiot - Groucho Marx

      by AlyoshaKaramazov on Mon Feb 13, 2006 at 11:05:33 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

    •  Isn't it about time that... (3.66)
      ...we stop having Raw Story dragged through the mud by you and others. I have been reading them for a year now, and find they are more reliable and truthful than the NYT or the WaPo these days. How come I don't see you saying that we should start taking NYT article "with a grain of salt"?

      Newcomers to this blog, please realize that comments like this are made by political moderates or conservatives who like to cover their politics by complaints about a diarist's style or sources. You look and judge for yourself.

      " this abject posture have ye sworn / To adore the Conquerour?..../ Awake, arise, or be for ever fall'n."

      by Valtin on Mon Feb 13, 2006 at 11:29:02 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  right (none)
        I'm a closet conservative. So is Meteor Blades, who shares my questions about Raw Story.


        I said that they spent a month saying that Rove was about to be indicted, and it never materialized. Theyre not awful, but their sources seem to get it wrong too often for my comfort. I'm not sure how that's a bullshit thing to point out.

        Republicans aren't evil. They're just wrong.

        by AnnArborBlue on Mon Feb 13, 2006 at 11:50:58 AM PST

        [ Parent ]

        •  I'm not saying you are a conservative (none)
          My comment said "moderate" or conservatives... I think you're stated stand against the impeachment of President Bush under the current circumstances is enough to label you as a moderate. Unless you are outing yourself as something more to the right...?

          Meteor Blades badmouthing Raw Story? I count that to blog-envy by a contributor to a different blog, Next Hurrah, an animus that the whole staff over there seems to carry. Perhaps your feelings about Raw Story are really loyalty to the known feelings of those at NH?

          " this abject posture have ye sworn / To adore the Conquerour?..../ Awake, arise, or be for ever fall'n."

          by Valtin on Mon Feb 13, 2006 at 12:08:50 PM PST

          [ Parent ]

          •  I'm not against impeachment as an idea (none)
            I just think it's particularly feasible at this point in time. If that stand makes me a "moderate", well then a hell of a lot of people are moderates.

            I can't speak to Meteor Blades' feelings, not being inside his head. You'll have to take that up with him.

            Loyalty to the Next Hurrah? I read their blog, and I find the contributors intelligent, but I wouldn't say I have any particular loyalty to them. If they had a track record of breathlessly announcing breaking news that ended up not panning out, I'd be pretty quick to criticize them too.

            Republicans aren't evil. They're just wrong.

            by AnnArborBlue on Mon Feb 13, 2006 at 12:22:54 PM PST

            [ Parent ]

          •  hold-up here please (none)
            I think there are good points on both sides. Rawstory did have pieces that never panned out on the Plame leak last fall. That was because, IMO, the only sources that were talking were lawyers, with clear agendas, trashing each other's clients to gain advantage in the public court of opinion.

            I still like Raw and this piece is different right? "According to current and former intelligence officials,..." is up front in the story. It still might not pan out. I don't know how this is going to develop. There is a news story from yesterday: Senators: Cheney Should Be Probed in Leak about expanding the probe based on the Cheney-Libby revelations last week. Why Fitz has to do all the heavy lifting is beyond me. It's up to the Congress to perform oversight. Rawstory can be right all the time but nothing will pan out unless the investigation starts driving the story.

          •  Next Hurrah (none)
            Funny, we see Ron Brynaert over at TNH fairly commonly. And I email with Larisa. She and I talked about THIS VERY STORY, in fact.

            But I guess your claims about "known feelings" would weigh more than the actual relationship between me and folks at rawstory.

            This is the way democracy ends Not with a bomb But with a gavel -Max Baucus

            by emptywheel on Mon Feb 13, 2006 at 01:44:40 PM PST

            [ Parent ]

            •  ya got that (none)
              I love Next Hurrah...and I think Meteor Blades, Ron K, and Empty Wheel are three of the smartest and best bloggers/journalists that there is.

              It's a shame that Raw Story gets slammed so much here (while at my personal blog...I have taken hits at Kos...that in no way reflects on what the rest of Raw Story staff think or feel...but i criticize everyone...on all sides...when i think it's necessary though that doesn't preclude me from linking to bloggers when they do exceptional work and I've even praised Markos from time to time).

              I don't know why Ann Arbor continues to attack RS for the Rove thing...nearly every doc released since last fall contains parts that have been blocked out which assumingly finger Rove...and everyone knows about the late Novak and Woodward revelations (at the same time...i've hardly been involved in Jason and Larisa's stories so I can't speak for them or their sources).

              I mean...jeez...we ain't Capitol Hill Blue.  And every news outfit and blogger does get things wrong from time to time.  Including Daily Kossacks.

              (aka ron brynaert)

            •  Emptywheel, I am a big fan (none)
              I love to read your stuff, and also many of the others at TNH.

              I know human nature, and I know that rivalries are common, and I don't hold that against anyone. In fact, if you look at my comments/diaries, I have never put down anyone's web site. I am aware how much effort goes into even the most modest site.

              Is everyone professional? No. TNH is pretty professional. I think Raw Story generally is, too, which is why I criticized the commentator above.

              In any case, I hope everyone at TNH and Raw Story, and many many more out there (firedoglake, digby, crooksandliars, etc. etc.) keeps up the good work.

              I hope the criticisms can be toned down. I'll try to adhere to that myself, as small potatoes as I am.

              " this abject posture have ye sworn / To adore the Conquerour?..../ Awake, arise, or be for ever fall'n."

              by Valtin on Mon Feb 13, 2006 at 07:00:32 PM PST

              [ Parent ]

          •  JFC.... criticism of a newsource (none)
            does not necessarily imply one is "moderate," "conservative," "jealous," or anything else - sometimes it just means you have a problem with the news source.

            There's no loyalty test on being a leftist, you know. Its ok to have questions about what other leftists are doing.

            Come get lost in our world:

            by MonkeyDog102 on Mon Feb 13, 2006 at 02:58:26 PM PST

            [ Parent ]

            •  There's a little piece (4.00)
              of paper that we dip in your urine...If it turns blue, you're liberal.Please pee into the container and send to-
              Attn. Ken Melman
               Republican National Committee
              310 First Street, SE
              Washington, DC 20003

              Pls. use UPS C.O.D.

              "I ain't no physicist, but I knows what matters"-Popeye

              by keefer55 on Mon Feb 13, 2006 at 04:49:21 PM PST

              [ Parent ]

        •  I'm saying (none)
          it's always a good idea to look at the byline on a story. Some of the least reliable and most controversial stuff at Raw Story came from Jason whatsisname, the guy who got kicked out of Salon for plagiarizing. I think he is gone from Raw Story now, too.
          Just an observation. I don't know whether the woman who wrote this new story is reliable.

          "That story is not worth the paper it's rotten on."--Dorothy Parker

          by martyc35 on Mon Feb 13, 2006 at 01:13:10 PM PST

          [ Parent ]

      •  Here here (4.00)
        Could the diary police please enlighten me? What exactly is responsible journalism?

        Is the AP responsible? Is the NYT responsible? Is the WaPo responsible?

        Please, I am serious. Inquiring minds want to know.

        Now I laugh and make a fortune off the same ones that I torture and a world says, "Kiss me, son of god." ~ They Might Be Giants

        by misscee on Mon Feb 13, 2006 at 11:52:39 AM PST

        [ Parent ]

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