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View Diary: From a surgeon: What Cheney's victim may be facing (280 comments)

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  •  Thank you, Dr. Frist (or is it Coburn?) (1.63)
    Shouldn't you know better than to speculate?  Isn't that what some here have criticized in the past?

    How do you know that there were 200-400 individual pellets in this case?  You don't.  It could be 10.  We have no idea.

    Maybe his facial injuries are to one side, not the whole face.  We have no clue.

    And on, and on.  

    I like that you offered your expertise.  I just wish it wasn't so speculative.

    •  Um.. Dr. Bernstein actually. (4.00)
      Your point is well taken, but I thought I was careful to present the diary as what is done generally for such cases rather than specifically for Mr. Whittington. I offer no opinion at all as to his particular treatment, since, as I said, I haven't examined him. The only time I mentioned his name outside the first paragraph was to show that the treatment pattern I discussed was consistent with one of the few things that has been reported about the case - that he's in the ICU.

      As to the number of pellets - that's how many are in the round. Absent an examination, I have no idea how many are in the patient.

      My point, really, is that shotgun traumas to the face are very serious, and to describe how they are commonly treated.

      •  has it been reported that (4.00)
        he used a 28 gauge?
        Cheney the mass bird murderer hardly seems like the type to be using a popgun. I would have guessed he was using a 20 gauge. translation: bigger.

        An election does not make a democracy.

        by seesdifferent on Mon Feb 13, 2006 at 12:17:09 PM PST

        [ Parent ]

        •  Yes (4.00)
          Armstrong said Cheney was firing a 28-gauge shotgun, a small-bore weapon commonly used for hunting birds. Cheney has come down to her ranch to hunt quail once a year for at least 15 years, and she called him "a very conscientious hunter."

          CNN

          •  Bushite Armstrong shills for Dick (none)
            This Armstrong Bushite also was quoted as saying that shootings just happen "from time to time" and she has been shot herself.  Anything to make this seem like just another day on the Bushite scum "Pioneer" $100,000 fundraiser ranch.

            Suppose Dictator Dick had killed this Whittington, would that be just A-OK with Armstrong?  Probably, she treats Dictator Dick like Miers dotes on Bush.

            Not to wish ill on the Bushite scum Whittington, but at 78 infection could easily take him out despite the "immediate care" and "good luck" of being shot by a madman who travels with his private doctor and ambulance.

            Maybe the 22 hour delay was to decide if Whittington really would recover, if not, he would probably have just "disappeared", I'm sure Dictator Dick could easily find a crew from his "black prison" gulags to take care of that.

            •  Erm, (none)
              If accidents happens from time to time, and seemingly everyone involved in this sorry farrago has either shot someone or been shot themselves, wouldn't that be an argument for stronger gun control?
          •  great quote.. (none)
            .."very conscientious" my ass... shooting domestic, just released, confused quail is not "conscientious" -- it is cruel and unusual, right up Cheney's alley.
          •  Correction (none)

                Armstrong said Cheney was firing a 28-gauge shotgun, a small-bore weapon commonly used for hunting birds. Cheney has come down to her ranch to hunt quail once a year for at least 15 years, 'and she called him "a very conscientious hunter WHO SHOT AN OLD DUDE."
             

        •  I've heard that as well (4.00)
          My guess would be that he's using a 28 gauge because there's a lot less recoil, which would make it easier on the ol' ticker. Of course, shooting someone probably negates that advantage.

          Mediocris, located at -6.13/-5.90

          by zenbowl on Mon Feb 13, 2006 at 12:26:40 PM PST

          [ Parent ]

      •  Thank you for sharing your expertise. (none)
        Do you agree that the known fact he is admitted to an Intensive Care Unit tells us volumes? If he did not require acute life support services, he wouldn't be in the ICU -- Correct ?
        •  Although, given who is involved... (4.00)
          the victim might be in the ICU, not because he needs to be, but because it keeps him secluded from the public view.

          I really hope, for his sake, that his injuries were relatively minor, that most of the pattern missed him, and he's just being treated in the ICU for political reasons.

          But I also hope that if that's not the case, the truth comes out.

          Folly is fractal: the closer you look at it, the more of it there is. - TNH

          by Canadian Reader on Mon Feb 13, 2006 at 01:39:24 PM PST

          [ Parent ]

          •  Anything is possible, I suppose, (none)
            but I find it difficult to believe this hospital would allow its ICU to be utilized for anything other than the most serious medical purposes.

            It also seems extremely far-fetched to me that this prominent, wealthy attorney would consent  to be in the ICU if he did, in fact, not need that level of care.

            •  This is Texas we're talking about, right? (4.00)
              A small-town hospital? And some Very Very Very Important People? With the Secret Service throwing its weight around, not even letting the local Sheriff talk to Cheney?

              I don't know. Maybe I've totally misread the way things work down there. Could be. My total personal experience of Texas is driving through it a couple of times. But...

              Let's just say it doesn't stretch my incredulity a whole bunch that the hospital could have been leaned on.

              As for the prominent, wealthy attorney's preferences -- he's not the alpha male here. He's part of the machine, he has a past and a future to protect here, and if he's not badly hurt he'll most likely do and say whatever he is told to do and say.

              Folly is fractal: the closer you look at it, the more of it there is. - TNH

              by Canadian Reader on Mon Feb 13, 2006 at 02:42:09 PM PST

              [ Parent ]

              •  Yeah. maybe, (none)
                but I am suggesting the man could be more seriously injured than has been reported, which seems a more likely explanation, and would also be consistent with the SOP of lies, lies and more lies.
      •  You're a class act (4.00)
        for handling the cheap shots so well :)

        "The test of our progress is not whether we add more to the abundance of those who have much; it is whether we provide enough for those who have too little."

        by vawolf on Mon Feb 13, 2006 at 12:36:47 PM PST

        [ Parent ]

      •  Dr. (1.40)
        This:

        I offer no opinion at all as to his particular treatment, since, as I said, I haven't examined him. The only time I mentioned his name outside the first paragraph was to show that the treatment pattern I discussed was consistent with one of the few things that has been reported about the case - that he's in the ICU.

        You wrote a diary, the title of which refers to "Cheney's victim." You're now saying that it's not about Whittington at all? Just about shotgun to the face wounds? I'm not sure I understand.

        You didn't do it.

        by Earl on Mon Feb 13, 2006 at 12:42:14 PM PST

        [ Parent ]

      •  i agree (none)
        you've hardly done a Frist; he was truly speculating.

        /there are no rules except discovery /the only tradition is invention. -rachel pollack

        by joseph rainmound on Mon Feb 13, 2006 at 01:19:31 PM PST

        [ Parent ]

      •  The press is reporting that (4.00)
        he was discharged from the ICU, in fact I have even read he was only admitted to the ICU "as a precaution."  My guess is that a guy who gets shot by the VP is going to get the red carpet treatment.

        The press is further reporting that he "took pellets in his cheek, neck and chest" as well his "shoulder," and that he was "peppered by shotgun spray."  The hospital said the victim is "not critical, not serious. It's just stable at this time."

        The reports state he had no pellets in his eyes.  

        I appreciate that you were trying to provide some information to readers who are looking for more detail, but I think that your speculation is incorrect.  It might have been better not to speculate at all.

        If people want to make political hay out of this incident, the best tact is to go the route of humour, not to overly dramatize the plight of the victim.  Hunting accidents aren't that rare, and I've heard of much worse (anyone here remember what happened to Greg LeMond?) similar situations.  So joking about this matter is probably the most politically cutting commentary that can be made.

      •  many thanks, Doc (none)

        for your insight and expertise.

        He was born with a gift of laughter and a sense that the world was mad.

        by Patrizio on Mon Feb 13, 2006 at 01:59:45 PM PST

        [ Parent ]

      •  asdf (none)
        I thought I was careful to present the diary as what is done generally for such cases rather than specifically for Mr. Whittington.

        Yes, you were.  Thanks for the info.
      •  A few more facts (maybe). (none)
        Here's a quote from CNN

        Dr. David Blanchard, the emergency room chief at Christus Spohn, said Whittington was hit by "many, many" pellets. But he said most of the wounds were "superficial at best," and many of the pellets would be left inside Whittington's body.

        "Many, many" pellets doesn't sound good.

        The idea that "most of the wounds" were superficial suggests that some wounds weren't.

        The idea that many of the pellets would be left in Whittington's body at least says they were deep enough to not be "flesh wounds".

        Will somebody PLEASE give George a BJ so we can impeach him? -5.25, -4.51

        by Tod on Mon Feb 13, 2006 at 03:51:53 PM PST

        [ Parent ]

      •  Thank you AmberJane.... (none)
        Thank you AmberJane for writing an excellent diary.  I did not interpret it as a remote diagnosis.  In fact you were very clear to just give general information about that type of injury.

        "Investigative reporting is not stenography", Maureen Dowd, Oct. 22, 2005

        by Jackson on Tue Feb 14, 2006 at 01:54:26 PM PST

        [ Parent ]

    •  Give the Doc A Break (4.00)
      No one knows much about this because Bush/Cheney tried to keep it totally quiet. It only came out because the ranch owner called a reporter with the Corpus Christi paper the day after this happened.

      The reports I've seen say the guy is in intensive care. This could be to keep him away from reporters. It could also be for the reasons the doc is explaining.

      The important thing is that we have an administration, particularly a vice president, that is obsessively secretive. Only problem, we are supposed to live in a society where no one is above the law and the government keeps people informed.

      If the administration tried to keep this totally out of the papers, what is to keep them from minimizing the man's injuries? And why did the local police clam up?

      If John Kerry had shot some goose hunter in the butt last fall, it would have been CNN headlined 10 seconds later with every pundit in the world commenting on the victim's progress, etc.

      Kerry would have been taken in for questioning, and you know the rest of the story. But this is Darth Cheney, whio got away with secret meetings with oil companies while he put together our energy (and war?) policy. The rules obviously don't apply to these guys.

      This is about the only way we have of divining what is really happening.

      Only thing I would suggest is that the doctor put the word 'Probably" or "Possibly" in the title.

      •  Good idea. Title updated. (n/t) (4.00)
      •  I agree (4.00)
        To take so long to report it would not bode well for anyone else. I know I would have been in cuffs if I reported this type of accident hours later and told the investigators we were all "getting our story straight".

        It is a well known fact, that those people who most want to rule people are, ipso facto, those least suited to do it. - Douglas Adams

        by SeattleLiberal on Mon Feb 13, 2006 at 12:35:54 PM PST

        [ Parent ]

        •  Laws don't apply to Dictator Dick (4.00)
          You are exactly right, no laws apply to Bush and Dictator Dick Cheney.  In fact, they are so sure that the laws don't apply to them that they don't even bother to acknowledge them.  

          Texas has a law about reporting gun shot wounds "immediately", so when did Dictator Dick's physician report this?

          I guess we'll know that just as soon as the Dictator Dick's Energy Task Force minutes are released.

    •  I agree (1.30)
      The diary shows impressive medical knowledege, but now recommended? This is truly no better than Frist.

      With respect to the doctor who seems very un-heavy-handed, we know nothing about his injuries. It could have been one pellet that was able to penetrate to the brain. He could still be in grave danger, worse than you portray, but in a completely different way medically.

      What purpose could this possibly serve except, like Frist's, a political one? It attempts to make Cheney look worse without saying it. It ain't right.

      You didn't do it.

      by Earl on Mon Feb 13, 2006 at 12:35:51 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  I was interested (4.00)
        in thinking about the patient, rather than the assailant in this case.
        •  I just don't see (1.81)
          how this is any different than Frist. Honestly, I like your gentle style, you don't seem vindictive or anything like that. But your medical knowledge means as much as mine--which is zero--when we don't have any knowledge  of the wounds. How could it be about the victim then? "Cheney's" victim?

          You didn't do it.

          by Earl on Mon Feb 13, 2006 at 12:50:38 PM PST

          [ Parent ]

        •  I , for one, am grateful. (none)
          I know that we must have quite a few medical professionals here at Daily Kos, but very few ever self identify or offer any of their expertise.  I've thought there are two reasons why they would be reluctant:

          They are afraid for their jobs.
          They are afraid to give any professional information for fear of being held legally liable.

          So when a user identifies as a medical professional and writes a reasonable and cautious diary, I cheer!  I want to see more of these.  I don't want to chase them away.  

          BTW - Where did the neurologist go?  He wrote that great diary about brain death during the Schiavo affair and promised more.

          We must never lose it, or sell it, or give it away. We must never let them take it from us.

          by Fabian on Mon Feb 13, 2006 at 02:27:22 PM PST

          [ Parent ]

      •  huh (4.00)
        What purpose could this possibly serve except

        It serves to describe this type of injury. It allows us to better understand a shotgun blast to the face/neck injury.  What part of that don't you understand?
         I found the diary very informative, isn't that what we expect from diaries.

        •  What part don't I understand? (1.36)
          The part where a doctor who hasn't seen a patient is making a possible diagnosis. Somethng we righteously reamed the holy batshit out a sitting senator for and rightly so.

          It allows us to better understand a shotgun blast to the face/neck injury.

          What--you were just sitting around this morning and you suddently thought: "You know, I think I'd really like to understand the injuries that would be caused by a shotgun blast to the face/neck."? It had nothing to do with, say, a strange incident involving our Vice President?

          You didn't do it.

          by Earl on Mon Feb 13, 2006 at 12:57:57 PM PST

          [ Parent ]

          •  diagnosis? (4.00)
            Where was a diagnosis made?

            Honestly, I don't see what you're getting at, aside from causing trouble. This is so clearly different from Frist that we shouldn't even have to have this argument.
            •  Diagnosis (1.66)
              The diary is a list, a long one, of possible injuries, their extent, and their treatment. Only speculating--but how is that not diagnosis? And prognosis?

              You didn't do it.

              by Earl on Mon Feb 13, 2006 at 01:18:36 PM PST

              [ Parent ]

              •  well (4.00)
                This is more accurately a prognosis, if anything. We all know the diagnosis: a shotgun. (Ignoring the issue of common vs. technical definitions of words.. I'm not trying to play a semantic game)

                As you say the post is fully speculative in nature. I simply don't understand the problem here. A dude gets popped with a shotgun, and this diary explores possible complications and treatments for a shotgun wound. We all learn something, no one is wronged.

                Let's pick a different scenario. If Cheney had a heart attack, would you be objecting to a diary that discusses heart attacks? Why or why not?
                •  The problem is... (3.33)
                  Only the worst possible prognosis was included.

                  A CBC article (Canadian) said that sometimes all it takes is tweezers to pull out the pellets.  I'm not suggesting that was the case here, although perhaps it could have been, and perhaps he was just put in the ICU given prominence and security issues.

                  Dr. Bernstein has been very fair in her tone in all of her comments.  I just wish there were far more caveats in the post, because it's so speculative and  doomsday-ish in its suggested outcome.

                  •  that's not why people go to the ICU (none)
                    prominence and security?  

                    that's what a private room is for (and guards)

                    the ICU is definitely no place for a prominent person or for a bunch of guards standing around

                    heaven save us from the people who learned everything they know about medicine from TV!!

                  •  Bingo (2.00)
                    And that makes Cheny look worse. If this were a diary from a doctor who said, "Just last week a treated a guy who got shot in the face with a shotgun while quail hunting--and he's fine! Hardly a nick on him!" Do you think comments would be a little different? I don't believe it conscious piling on--but it's still hypocritical considering the reaming we rightly gave Frist.

                    You didn't do it.

                    by Earl on Mon Feb 13, 2006 at 01:42:18 PM PST

                    [ Parent ]

                    •  The difference is the histories of the patients (none)
                      Schiavo's history was quite long, and involved court cases, videos, etc. Frist was commenting on something, i.e. neurological examinations, that was not in his area of expertise. From a few seconds of video he pronounced someone that had been in a coma for years and had a brain stem made of mush (according to her MRI scans) as cognizant of her surroundings.

                      The diarist does have direct experience in this area and only states what the normal course of action would be for such an injury. She uses what has been published as face, i.e. 28 guage, 100 feet, shot spread far enough to hit cheek, throat and chest, patient confined to ICU for a significant period of time.

                      Big difference.

                      You can't even get your facts straight. You keep saying he might have been hit with just one pellet, versus reports that say he was hit in several areas. At best, most of the spread of the shot was in front of him and he just caught the edge of it, only 10-30 pellets. A shotgun at a 100 feet will put the shot deeply into your flesh, period. It could easily fracture thin bones as well, like in the facial structure.

                      Have you actually shot anything with a shotgun, Earl? I used to own a 28, and it's a nice little piece for small birds.

                      "Our lives begin to end the day we become silent about the things that matter." Dr. ML King, from a jail cell in Birmingham, Alabama in 1963.

                      by bewert on Mon Feb 13, 2006 at 03:48:49 PM PST

                      [ Parent ]

                      •  Double-barrell 12-guage (none)
                        was the gun Dad broke us in with. Single 12-guage for squirrels cuz we could after that, though mostly .22 cuz it was lighter and less scary.

                        And they're not facts yet so there's no straight nor narrow to them. My point was, and I think it was pretty clear, that the diagnosis and prognosis could be very different than what is proposed here, making it little more than a guess and having exactly a guess's value, IMO, while it puts Cheney in a bad light. That's is a fair point to make.

                        You didn't do it.

                        by Earl on Mon Feb 13, 2006 at 04:18:41 PM PST

                        [ Parent ]

                        •  Not facts? (none)
                          Read the Incident Report Form for some facts. Note the area of the body that was hit by pellets. A bit more than a single pellet would reach.

                          You have anything left to eat after using a 12 on a squirrel? Kind of overkill. We shot them with a 22 from the start. 12's are for pheasant and up, although I used a short barrel one with slugs for deer hunting quite a bit. Figured it was more sporting than a 30.06 or 303 with a scope, as you had to be good enough to get close.

                          "Our lives begin to end the day we become silent about the things that matter." Dr. ML King, from a jail cell in Birmingham, Alabama in 1963.

                          by bewert on Mon Feb 13, 2006 at 11:04:23 PM PST

                          [ Parent ]

          •  Hmm (4.00)
              You apparently don't know what the word "diagnosis" means.

              No diagnosis was made. What was given was a fairly straightforward assestment of how shotgun blasts to the face are handled, and the complications that can arise.

              If Cheney were in the hospital for what was reported as "heart problems that might require an angioplasty" -- would you object if a heart surgeon talked about how an angioplasty is done, the risks associated, and when it's indicated?

            •  Diagnosis (2.00)
              "The act or process of identifying or determining the nature and cause of a disease or injury..." (American Heritage)

              The nature of injury was certainly described--under what Whittington "may" go through (thought eh "may" was added after my first objection).

              The complete definition: a. The act or process of identifying or determining the nature and cause of a disease or injury through evaluation of patient history, examination, and review of laboratory data. b. The opinion derived from such an evaluation."

              Those things are obviously absent here, which backs up my point, I think.

              You didn't do it.

              by Earl on Mon Feb 13, 2006 at 01:32:51 PM PST

              [ Parent ]

              •  Sheesh! Get over yourself! (4.00)
                "Those things are obviously absent here, which backs up my point, I think."

                Those things are obviously absent here, which backs up everybody else's point that she wasn't making a diagnosis!!

                What has been reported is simply -
                he is 78
                he was hit in the head, chest, and neck,
                he is in ICU
                the gun was a 28 gauge
                the distance was approximately 30 yards

                None of us have seen him. None of us have heard a doctor's report on his condiition beyond this. The last two "facts" have been reported by the "eyewitness" but not verified.

                Without making any medical diagnosis, certain logical deductions can be drawn.  A 28 gauge shell holds about 1-1/4 ounce of shot. We have not been told the size of the shot. At that range (if a true report of the range), the size of the shot and the amount of choke makes an enormous amount of difference -- the difference between a "peppering" and a serious injury. The reported fact that he is in ICU indicates the the injury is more than a "peppering".

                You speculated that it might be a single pellet in the brain. That is not consistent with the facts as they have been reported. The doctor did not speculate at all about this particular patient's condition, but rather provided experienced observation on the type of injuries typically seen with shotgun blasts to the face, head, and chest.

                No, this isn't like Frist passing judgement on Terry Schaivo's condition from having viewed a videotape. This doctor isn't diagnosing this patient, and hasn't seen him -- not even a videotape. You went off in the wrong direction on this, and now you're being willingly obtuse about it. Get over yourself -- you were wrong, and you're not making yourself more respected by staying on it.

                •  sheesh, yourself (4.00)
                  C'mon, Earl's just defending himself from an onslaught of 1s and 0s. Doing well, i might add.

                  -7.00,-7.74 "He is a bad version of us! No more money for him."

                  by subtropolis on Mon Feb 13, 2006 at 03:55:46 PM PST

                  [ Parent ]

                •  My "speculation" (none)
                  You can't be serious in accusing me of that when I used that to point out how the problem of speculating, can you?

                  And this: That is not consistent with the facts as they have been reported.

                  Facts just ain't what they used to be. Those reports could be correct--how the hell do I know. Does it make speculation make more sense? Hell no. Isn't another fact (as they have been reported) that he's out of the ICU? Wouldn't that make this diary an exercise futility?

                  You didn't do it.

                  by Earl on Mon Feb 13, 2006 at 04:46:35 PM PST

                  [ Parent ]

          •  Japanese Salad & Salad Dressing (4.00)
            Dressing:
            1/4 c. soy sauce
            1/4 c. rice vinegar
            1/4 c. sesame oil (or vegetable oil)
            1/2 tsp. garlic powder
            1/2 tsp. ginger
            1/2 tsp. sugar

            Greens:
            2 green onions
            6 to 8 radishes
            1/2 lettuce
            1 c. sugar peas
            8 to 10 cherry tomatoes
            1/2 tbsp. sesame seeds

            Chop the green onions. Slice radish. Cook sugar peas. Cut cherry tomatoes in half. Cut lettuce in small pieces.

            Blend all dressing ingredients. Mix all greens and tomatoes with dressing. Then sprinkle sesame seeds.

          •  This is VERY helpful. (4.00)
            It is a caution that we should not accept uncritically the RW talking point that the injuries are minor.  I lowered myself into Freeperville early this afternoon, and some of the orcs down there were saying that being "peppered" by a shotgun is no big deal, that it happens all the time. Huh?

            I appreciate hearing from an expert what I figured anyway, that being shot by a shotgun is serious business.

            "Yes, I'd give the Devil benefit of law, for my own safety's sake!" -- Sir Thomas More, in A Man For All Seasons, by Robert Bolt

            by Shiborg on Mon Feb 13, 2006 at 01:39:59 PM PST

            [ Parent ]

            •  That's like a SNL skit (none)
              "I did not know how serious a shotgun wound to the face could be until an expert explained it to me."

              You didn't do it.

              by Earl on Mon Feb 13, 2006 at 02:01:20 PM PST

              [ Parent ]

              •  It may seem like common sense... (4.00)
                But since most journalists fell off the turnip truck yesterday, they have no idea what a shotgun blast can do and will take the spin they are fed. It helps to have someone say it CAN be serious and give us some information on what the effects COULD be, so we can make informed judgments WHEN we get more information.

                "Yes, I'd give the Devil benefit of law, for my own safety's sake!" -- Sir Thomas More, in A Man For All Seasons, by Robert Bolt

                by Shiborg on Mon Feb 13, 2006 at 02:08:52 PM PST

                [ Parent ]

                •  You honestly believe (none)
                  that "have no idea what a shotgun blast can do"? You can not be serious. Every five-year-old in this country knows what a shotgun can do. It wasn't about that and it still isn't. It's about the gap in time before notification. The seriousness of the guy's injuries will be known soon enough. Specualtion about injuries--honestly--did you really say "Most journalists..." "...have no idea what a shotgun blast can do"? You couldn't have.

                  You didn't do it.

                  by Earl on Mon Feb 13, 2006 at 04:07:50 PM PST

                  [ Parent ]

                  •  Well, Earl... (none)
                    ...the journalists were mostly buying the line that it was Whittington's fault because, as Bush-Cheney's people explained, Whittington had walked up from behind Cheney without announcing his presence.

                    Um, hello?!?  When approaching a bird-hunting party:

                    1) You do it from behind, so that you're not in front of the guns,

                    AND

                    2) You do it quietly, so as not to flush the game early.

          •  I will add (4.00)
            that, not only has the doctor not seen the patient, but the doctor has no idea as to the severity of the injuries. Indeed, the pellets may have been plucked out with tweezers. Or half his face is scattered in a field.

            Can we at least wait until he checks out?

            -7.00,-7.74 "He is a bad version of us! No more money for him."

            by subtropolis on Mon Feb 13, 2006 at 03:59:37 PM PST

            [ Parent ]

        •  Yes, Thank you Doctor (4.00)
          It is informative and helpful to me to have a facial surgeon's perspective on what treatment/ prognosis a shotgun pellet type of injury can typically entail. If the MSM did their job, they would ask someone like Dr. AmberJane to speak about this to their audience so the public would have more to go on than Cheneyblather.

          Dr. Please update your diary or post new ones later in the week as more information becomes public. You are no Bill Frist and it is well within your field of practice and your service to this blog to post your analysis on this topic.

      •  Take it Seriously (none)
        What purpose could this possibly serve except, like Frist's, a political one? It attempts to make Cheney look worse without saying it. It ain't right.

        There was an attempt in early news reports to downgrade the seriousness of the situation, with someone saying on NPR that the victim looked like he had chickenpox or the like.  I'm not a doctor, but the fact that there were neck injuries must raise the possibility of carotid artery damage.

        •  The facts and seriousness (1.50)
          of his injuries will explain themselves. What good is this guessing doing now?

          You didn't do it.

          by Earl on Mon Feb 13, 2006 at 12:53:01 PM PST

          [ Parent ]

          •  It's simple (4.00)
            The good is that Dr. Bernstein is giving us information about shotgun wounds and their treatment in general, information we otherwise don't have at our fingertips.  Your claims that she was doing the same thing as Frist are rubbish, as she stated quite clearly it wasn't a diagnosis of the patient's condition, merely an informative hypothetical of what he could be facing.  Frist, on the other hand, looked at a video and said "she looks fine to me!"  Apples and oranges.

            Honestly, the cranks on Kos will pick an unnecessary fight over anything, won't they?

            •  Cranks exist (4.00)
              but I see this as a pretty important issue--credibility. I believe, without searching and without reaching and instantly when I saw this diary, that it is hypocritical to side with this and slam Frist. Are they different? Yes, very. But they are also obviously alike in many ways. And as was pointed out by bam101, only the worst possible scenario was dicussed--and it therefore refelcts badly on Cheney.

              For people here to say it's hijacking to be saying this and making more than one comment--that's crazy talk. People are responding to me and I'm responding to them. It's a conversation.

              And for the record, the first commenter, bam101, who wrote "Thank you Dr. Frist,"--got a 4 from AmberJane, the doctor and diarist. All those giving zeroes should take note of that, IMO.

              You didn't do it.

              by Earl on Mon Feb 13, 2006 at 02:11:49 PM PST

              [ Parent ]

          •  All we have is specualtion (none)
            All they have are lies.

            If the victim were fine he'd be on the tube talking about what a great guy Dick is.

          •  How do you know ... (none)
            we are going to get the "facts"? The RW spin has started already.

            "Yes, I'd give the Devil benefit of law, for my own safety's sake!" -- Sir Thomas More, in A Man For All Seasons, by Robert Bolt

            by Shiborg on Mon Feb 13, 2006 at 01:45:17 PM PST

            [ Parent ]

            •  so we should make up our own? (none)
              I agree with Earl—give it some time. Yes, this maladministration is unequaled in its spin and lies, but we don't know shit about this story. Could we perhaps wait a bit. I'm sure the media is camped outside the hospital. You'll get your look soon enough.

              -7.00,-7.74 "He is a bad version of us! No more money for him."

              by subtropolis on Mon Feb 13, 2006 at 03:36:40 PM PST

              [ Parent ]

          •  Folks, knock off the troll ratings. (4.00)
            Earl is not a troll; calling for moderation is not grounds for giving out 0's.
        •  It also raises the possibilty (none)
          that Dick blew his head completely off. Or that it was a scratch.

          Let's wait and see, shall we?

          -7.00,-7.74 "He is a bad version of us! No more money for him."

          by subtropolis on Mon Feb 13, 2006 at 03:39:45 PM PST

          [ Parent ]

      •  I respectfully disagree (4.00)
        . . . because the kind doctor did not offer a diagnosis.

        She gave us a broad overview of these types of injury situations from a process standpoint, from presentation to diagnosis to even long-term treatment considerations.  This wasn't a far-away conclusion on the patient's actual condition, ala Frist.  This was helpful context for all of us as more on this story unfolds.

        We are all speculating on possible causes of the incident, coverup potentialities, etc. from a personality and politics perspective.  We've heard from hunters all over the blogosphere (including me) on how non-kosher the entire situation sounded from a hunting safety standards standpoint.  This is all to help fill in pieces of the picture as we begin to glean more facts.

        Your implied call to be cautious sounds proper, but I do not agree with your reason for criticizing this diary, which I found informative.

      •  maybe you're thinking of another Dick Cheney? (none)
        re: political. this is a political issue. Cheney is not a private citizen, he is the Vice President of the United States of America. He holds political office. Political diaries are completely in order.

        hark! hark! the Clark!!

        by Errol on Mon Feb 13, 2006 at 01:02:20 PM PST

        [ Parent ]

      •  lay off (4.00)
        What purpose could this possibly serve

        Oh...I dunno...maybe because he's a facial surgeon, and this guy just got shot in the face...requiring..I'll speculate....facial surgery?

        The post is damn interesting.  It's NOT supposed to be an accurate diagnosis of anyone; it's letting us know the steps of the recovery are.  You WONT BE GETTING THIS FROM CNN, OK????  

        Doc, thanks for the Buckshot Bulletin.  The Pellet Preview.  The shotgun skinny.  

        We were promised a democracy, sold an oligarchy, and ended up with a kakistocracy...

        by topicalstorm on Mon Feb 13, 2006 at 01:43:27 PM PST

        [ Parent ]

    •  Ah, (4.00)
      it's been reported that Cheney was hunting with a 28. And given that he was quail hunting he was probably using No. 8 shot (for dove and quail). It was reported he was hit by about 50 pellets. He was standing 30 yards away. He had injuries to the face neck and shoulder. They only thing we don't know is what choke Cheney was using so that we can have a fair guess about how big the whole pellet pattern actuallly was. Hell. What we've got is enough to give a fair approximation of the total amount of force applied to the victim.  I'd say the doc's guess is pretty damned good.

      I like to think of the Republican Party as an Iceberg--large, white, cold-hearted, not too swift, and can't change direction.

      by DyspepTex on Mon Feb 13, 2006 at 12:40:44 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

    •  dude (dudess?) (4.00)
      this doctor did NOT make a diagnosis nor even a prognosis for Harry Whittington.  She gave general info on a wound she's worked on many times, and was extremely objective, and careful with her analysis.  I applaud her.

      You, I do not applaud.  I think your comment is juvenile, and is definitely out of line.  Hence the "1"

      Yours Truly,
      Dr. Buttinsky


      He may look like an idiot and talk like an idiot but don't let that fool you. He really is an idiot - Groucho Marx

      by AlyoshaKaramazov on Mon Feb 13, 2006 at 12:54:02 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

    •  Inaccurate and insulting (4.00)
      Dr. Frist viewed videotape of a patient, publicly questioned the attending physician's diagnosis, and then tried to interject himself into the family's decision-making process.  

      AmberJane offers insight into her own reaction to the news from her viewpoint as a professional in facial cosmetic surgery.  I found her comments very interesting, and was able to understand on reading it that she was commenting speculatively, and not making claim to any definitive diagnosis of the patient.

      It is inaccurate and insulting to suggest that AmberJane's comments are comparable to Frist's.  

    •  OK, I was too harsh (4.00)
      I'll concede.

      But the patient is out of ICU now.  And an article from our Canadian friends at CBC News says that:

      "Whittington was mostly injured on his right side, with the pellets hitting his cheek, neck and chest, and was taken to hospital by ambulance, Armstrong told the Associated Press."

      So my alternative hypotheses were far more on-target than the diarist's.  The distance and the likely choke made it less serious than it could have been, probably.

      So thanks for the downratings on manners- I'll take them- but my point about the diarist's speculation still stands.  And for all our joy in piling on Cheney, being reality-based sometimes is the better place to be.

      •  "our joy"? - do I detect a troll first (none)
        person plural?

        hark! hark! the Clark!!

        by Errol on Mon Feb 13, 2006 at 01:34:21 PM PST

        [ Parent ]

      •  You weren't too harsh (4.00)
        You were snarky. A sacred tradition here. Except when...

        And you finished with this: I like that you offered your expertise.  I just wish it wasn't so speculative.

        You were gentle and good and it is wrong that you're getting flamed. I'm getting it now too--for disagreeing ,and very kindly to the good doctor. Silly kids.

        You didn't do it.

        by Earl on Mon Feb 13, 2006 at 01:37:02 PM PST

        [ Parent ]

      •  Holy shit! (4.00)
        I lost my TU in this diary. That's a first (though I lost it once before after being absent for some time...is that possible?). Only thing that bugs me is that I can't see responses to my comments--and I'm sure there's good ones. Dang!

        You didn't do it.

        by Earl on Mon Feb 13, 2006 at 02:18:19 PM PST

        [ Parent ]

        •  You'll get it back, Earl (none)
          You have a reputation of quality participation.  This time you made a mistake.  Let it go.  We still love you!

          ;^)

          We must never lose it, or sell it, or give it away. We must never let them take it from us.

          by Fabian on Mon Feb 13, 2006 at 02:37:43 PM PST

          [ Parent ]

          •  Fabian (4.00)
            Thanks for the kind words.

            I must express my disagreement. It was unseemly and inappropriate for a doctor to do this. That is how I feel and I stand behind it 100%. That is disagreement and it should not be confused with meanness or unkindness or even lack of tact. It is simply saying what I believe. I was direct and kind to the doctor and the doctor gave me a 4 for that.

            Again, thanks for your kind words, but that's my story and I'm stickin' to it. Cheers

            You didn't do it.

            by Earl on Mon Feb 13, 2006 at 02:50:44 PM PST

            [ Parent ]

            •  sometimes (none)
              even you are wrong, Earl

              hard to believe, but true

              •  It's a disagreement (4.00)
                and an opinion. It ain't about right or wrong. Read my comments. I express my disagrement and my opinion. Maybe that's a problem for those doing the flaming--a basic misunderstanding of that. "If you don't agree with something I like, you're wrong!" That is asabackwardsfuckedup.

                You didn't do it.

                by Earl on Mon Feb 13, 2006 at 04:02:04 PM PST

                [ Parent ]

            •  i agree (4.00)
              though "unseemly" doesn't fit for me. But, yeah—i think the diary was a tad too speculative in the sense that we don't have a clue as to the extent of the guy's injuries.

              I've got your back (though i imagine my TU status is tanking also. Especially after the "WTC collapse was really a demolition" tinfoil diary from this morning).

              -7.00,-7.74 "He is a bad version of us! No more money for him."

              by subtropolis on Mon Feb 13, 2006 at 04:18:59 PM PST

              [ Parent ]

    •  no comparison to Frist (none)
      Frist was using his doctor's credential in an attempt to influence legislation that would directly interfere with Terry Schaivo's medical care.  This doctor is not trying to interfere in Mr. Whittington's medical care, nor does she have the authority of a senator to interfere (not that the Senate really had that authority.)

      No comparison, plus she qualified her opinion as general -- Frist was second-guessing doctors' diagnosis of Ms. Schaivo.

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