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View Diary: From a surgeon: What Cheney's victim may be facing (280 comments)

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  •  I think you have (3.75)
    placed the victim a little too close to the firearm. The injuries and treatments you are describing are for intentional, close range shootings where the victim is the target.

    This, even with the cover up, sounds like a hunting accident. The reports say the pellets hit the face, neck and chest. In other words - there was time to spread out and loose velocity. These types of injuries are not nearly as dramatic.

    Having the VP shoot someone isn't a good thing. The fact there was time for everyone to "get their story straight" makes me wonder what they could be thinking. Not good. But I think by describing the worst case scenario you have dramatized the event a bit.

    It is a well known fact, that those people who most want to rule people are, ipso facto, those least suited to do it. - Douglas Adams

    by SeattleLiberal on Mon Feb 13, 2006 at 12:15:20 PM PST

    •  Check out Firedoglake. (4.00)
      They think he had to be standing closer. I'm not a hunter, though, and I know nothing about guns.

      "Lies, lies, lies, ye-ah... they're going to get you." --The Thompson Twins

      by modchick65 on Mon Feb 13, 2006 at 12:19:05 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  It really depends. (4.00)
        There are so many unknowns at this time that saying the victim was further or closer than 30 yards is speculation, but I'll add my own for kicks.

        Open choked = wider opening at end of gun = pellets spread out faster.
        Closed choked= narrower opening = pellets stay together longer.

        One of the main things we don't know is the choke of the gun. A open choked 28G shotgun at 30 yards filled with 8-shot would have pretty wide dispersal pattern. A direct hit at this distance would cause serious injury and the victim would get hit by lots of pellets over a pretty large area. A closed choke would have created a much smaller dispersion pattern at that distance and direct hit would be pretty violent even with a 28G.

        Another thing we don't know is the strength of the charge, aka load. That is, the amount of powder in the shells. Because quail are small birds and they fly very fast, it is quite common to use a relatively weak load and an open choke. You want to shoot ASAP, but you don't want all the pellets hitting the bird and mangling the meat. You also typically don't want a really powerful load for the same reasons. A single pellet or two is sufficient to down a quail.

        So adding to the pure speculation, I think the victim may have received a direct hit with a weak load, 28G gun with an open choke at 30 yards. Uranius Pelican at firedoglake said it much better than I.

        Behind the dark veil of patriotism a nation mourns itself.

        by Espumoso on Mon Feb 13, 2006 at 01:17:04 PM PST

        [ Parent ]

    •  Fair point (4.00)
      I suppose when I hear "shotgun to the face" what I think of is what I described. But the attending physician will always have the better diagnosis.
      •  Me as well (none)
        I've seen a shotgun suicide. Horrible, horrible scene.

        I can't believe our VP shot someone at all.

        It is a well known fact, that those people who most want to rule people are, ipso facto, those least suited to do it. - Douglas Adams

        by SeattleLiberal on Mon Feb 13, 2006 at 12:29:43 PM PST

        [ Parent ]

        •  You can't? (3.94)
          "I can't believe our VP shot someone at all."

          True.  I always thought he seemed more like the type to gnaw all the way through someone's neck.

          Sixteen scandals in my heart will glow: click "A is for Abramoff"

          by Major Danby on Mon Feb 13, 2006 at 12:36:29 PM PST

          [ Parent ]

        •  see, that's just the thing (none)
          (and this isn't a flame at you)

          I've seen a guy who failed at a shotgun suicide. That was a horrible scene.

          But that was a very close range, deliberate event. Much as what AmberJane was describing (though, perhaps not with the weapon in the victim's mouth). My point is that we don't have any clue as to the ballistics involved. Was he hit full on? Or just grazed with a few pellets? Is his face tendeloin, or "peppered"? We'll have to wait to find out.

          -7.00,-7.74 "He is a bad version of us! No more money for him."

          by subtropolis on Mon Feb 13, 2006 at 04:32:39 PM PST

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    •  Victim was 9 meters away from shooter Cheney (none)
      according to witness Armstrong.
      •  Armstrong is a Bush supporter (none)
        As if I believe anything she would say. (If she told me today was Monday, I would still check a calender to be sure.)

        "Yes, I'd give the Devil benefit of law, for my own safety's sake!" -- Sir Thomas More, in A Man For All Seasons, by Robert Bolt

        by Shiborg on Mon Feb 13, 2006 at 01:52:47 PM PST

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      •  When did the story go metric? (none)
        9 meters?  I'd heard 30 feet.  Okay, same thing; but did anyone actually give the distance in meters (before now)?  Texas strikes me as though it would be one of the last holdouts against the metric system.  Then again, with oil & gas from overseas being measured in cubic meters or kiloliters or whatever, Texas may be first.  Stop me, I'm starting to ramble.
        •  Since it was reported in Europe, I guess (none)
          Gee. Who woulda' thunk...duh.

          Later stories run through the US corporate media  were first cleared through the WH propaganda Dept and measured in Abu Gonzales weasel-speak units. I guess.

          maybe you should check the kerning though, just to be safe.

        •  i think the metric (none)
          is from the CBC story. It's very common in the rest of the world to convert imperial emasurements to something more reasonable.

          -7.00,-7.74 "He is a bad version of us! No more money for him."

          by subtropolis on Mon Feb 13, 2006 at 04:24:00 PM PST

          [ Parent ]

      •  sure (none)
        But was the weapon aimed directly at the victim? Was the weapon rtacking when it went off? How much load did the shells have? Was the victim stationary?

        That's correct—we don't know.

        -7.00,-7.74 "He is a bad version of us! No more money for him."

        by subtropolis on Mon Feb 13, 2006 at 04:22:12 PM PST

        [ Parent ]

      •  doesn't say that (none)
        The article you cite reads "She said the two men were about 90 feet, or 25 meters, apart."

        Has the article changed since you saw it?

        It is a little strange if she said 90 feet, as I think most Americans would estimate that distance in yards, or round up to a hundred feet.  But the writer could have converted years to feet then to meters.

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