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View Diary: BREAKING - New Abu Ghraib Photos Released (W/MORE IMAGES) (330 comments)

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  •  i'm so ashamed of my country. (4.00)
    we all should be. these are our tax dollars at work.

    we have earned the world's scorn.

    we are all going to hell.

    "after the Rapture, we get all their shit"

    now rocking the UK. check out An Angry Yank in Kent, yo.

    by lipris on Tue Feb 14, 2006 at 04:11:24 PM PST

    •  I did nothing to earn the world's scorn (3.66)
      In fact, I've done as much as possible to oppose this war, this president, his cronies, etc.  I don't blame myself for any of this.

      Just like I don't think you can blame all Muslims for the acts of the asshole rioters, you can't blame all Americans for the acts of asshole soldiers.  Both are a minority of their larger groups...

      •  In your name (4.00)
        Like it or not, this government represents all Americans. I don't even blame the asshole soldiers. I blame the assholes who gave the orders to do this.

        Who do you blame: the soldiers gassing the Jews, their commanders, or the guys who put such a  policy in place?

        Take those Abu Ghraib photos personally.

        •  I take them very seriously (4.00)
          and as i said below, I think that this administration should be tried for war crimes.  

          I personally blame the administration for ordering the war, the people in congress who authorized military action, and the soldiers who act like the main guy in all those photos.  I don't care if he was following orders or not--look at his face--he is thoroughly enjoying every minute of it.  The world would be a better place without people like him (and Bush) in it.

        •  All of them! Graner was a corrections (4.00)
          officer who had been fired for misconduct from a prison in PA(or WV). He, and everyone else there, knew that this kind of behavior wpuld be unacceptable at home. As I beleive was established at Nurenberg after WWII, 'I was following orders' is not a valid excuse for clearly immoral and beastial behavior.

          All of them, from privates up through the generals and President Bush, should be prosecuted for war crimes. The only difference is in the level of culpability, with those at the top being more culpable. Like conservatives are fond of repeatedly saying, the best deterrent is the certainty of punishment.

        •  blame the people who elected (4.00)
          the assholes who put the policy in place.

          I hold ALL GOP voters responsible.

          •  By that logic (none)
            ..blame all the people who did not bother to vote.

            Sorry, the old adage rings painfully true that in a democratically elected state a country gets the type of governnment it deserves.

            Again, these pictures are in your name. Republican..Democrat...non-voters. Be ashamed and take your own measure of responsibilty, whatever that is.

            •  Lieberman (4.00)
              This is the reason my number one political priority is to reform the Democratic Party, starting with getting rid of Joe Lieberman, who voted to confirm Alberto Gonzalez.

              Voting for a Dem Presidential candidate is not enough. We have to have the Party on the right side of the world and on the right side of morality. That's not a few people in the party, but the whole party, together.

            •  I Agree With You (none)

              Non-voters are just as complicit in the ascendancy of the Bush administration as those who voted Republican.

              And the failure of the American people to rise up en masse in the face of constant scandal and horrific acts perpetrated in the name of your country is also shameful.

      •  We Did Nothing (none)
        to earn the world's scorn...but we have it anyway.

        We all have done what we can to fight against the Evil that is the Bush Administration. But in the eyes of the world, this was done by "America".

        •  You are quite correct... (3.66)
          We Did Nothing

          And that is why you have justly earnt the world's scorn.

          None of this is new, it has been going on for decades.  It has finally got to big to ignore, that is all.

          In the past when any suggestion of anything like this has arisen it has been tossed in the 'too hard' basket.  So you have prisons in which being raped seems to be consdered part of the 'punishment', a health care system that does not provide for those in inclement conditions, the most corrupt 'democratic' system in the world.  And you imagine your hands are clean....

          It is America's sheer hypocrisy that has brought the world's scorn upon it.

          Truckle the Uncivil, Nullus Anxietas Sanguinae. Economic Left/Right: -3.38 Social Libertarian/Authoritarian: -6.00

          by Truckle on Tue Feb 14, 2006 at 06:08:56 PM PST

          [ Parent ]

      •  True, but... (4.00)
        But the military (supposedly) has a direct line of authority, and therefore responsibility, for the actions of its soldiers.

        The Muslim clerics can no more control their followers than the Pope can control all Catholics.  Influence, sure--but does the Pope get in trouble if one of his faith has pre-marital intercourse?

        The point being that SOMEBODY had direct authority over those soldiers who... [having hard time with words here] perpetrated these horrific acts.  And they were either AWOL or complicit.  Bam.  Nailed.

        But will anybody accountable actually be charged?  My hopes are slim.

        He not busy being born is busy dying... Bob Dylan

        by Precedent on Tue Feb 14, 2006 at 05:31:13 PM PST

        [ Parent ]

        •  Jeanne at Body and Soul (3.66)
          has this to say:
          The soldiers who murdered an innocent Afghan taxi driver named Dilawar will certainly not be punished. Tim Golden, who has been doing holy work on this story for a long time, has a must-read piece in today's Times about the Army's muddled prosecution of those responsible for the deaths of Dilawar and another prisoner, Mullah Habibullah, at the Bagram detention center. The worst punishment anyone has gotten for these two murders is five months in prison. Golden's delineation of the reasons for this failure to hold anyone accountable are fascinating -- and tragic.

          One reason is simply bizarre: So many soldiers participated in the beatings of the two prisoners, that to assign guilt to any one would be difficult. Two things you have to remember about the law if you're going to survive in George Bush's America:

          If the president does it, it's legal.

          If everyone does it, it's okay.

          Second, the courts simply have more sympathy for American soldiers than Afghan civilians:

          In the modest Fort Bliss courtrooms where the trials have been held, the two Afghan victims have rarely been evoked, except in autopsy photographs. But much testimony focused on hardships faced by the soldiers themselves: the poor training they received, the tough conditions in which they operated, the vague rules with which they had to contend. As in other recent abuse cases, Army judges and jurors also seemed to consider the soldiers' guilt or innocence with an acute sense of the sacrifices they had made in serving overseas.

          Lt. Col. Joseph A. Simonelli Jr., who sat on the jury for a former Bagram guard who admitted to repeatedly striking one of the detainees who died, was asked after the trial how he had viewed the defendant. The soldier, convicted of maiming, assault and other crimes, was sentenced to only a demotion in rank, and honorably discharged.

          "This individual was an American citizen who had been called up," Colonel Simonelli, a Fort Bliss battalion commander, said in an interview. "He had volunteered, and when they called upon him to perform his duties in a time of war, he did it without question."

          Here's Jeralyn's take: U.S. Military Torturers at Bagram Escape Punishment
      •  the last straw (none)
        what a fucking dirty, vulgar, rogue nation we've become.
        because we've been participating in the political circus and "lost" (thanks to Diebold) to the fiends who brought this about does not excuse any of us from shared responsibility.
        time to lay down on the tracks.  stop business as usual.  failing that, we have to find a way to secede...  break up the violent behometh called USA.
        the world demands nothing less.
        our victems demand nothing less.
        our founding fathers demand nothing less as they turn in their graves.

        ps - to anyone who thinks secession is unreasonable and america is still salvageable, please take another look at the photos.

        "Yer doin' a heck of a job, Brownie!" -- tone-deaf, man-child preznit

        by tsurube on Tue Feb 14, 2006 at 07:32:54 PM PST

        [ Parent ]

      •  sorry man, (none)
        you ain't gonna absolve yourself that easily.  we're all in this ship together.

        so you think I'm a troll? Well kiss my hairy troll nalgas then

        by MetaProphet on Tue Feb 14, 2006 at 10:44:17 PM PST

        [ Parent ]

      •  Scorn is not a necesary condition for shame (none)
        I vote for the right people.  I send money to the right causes.  I hold candles at vigils with likeminded people.  I write letters.  But I'm not brave enough to get up from my desk, walk into the busy interesection outside of my window, and lay down until this all stops.  That's a shame.
    •  I am screaming....................... (4.00)
      NOT IN MY NAME, NOT IN MY NAME, NOT IN MY NAME.  And I'm having trouble typing because of angry tears in my eyes.  America I don't love you anymore.

      "He that sees but does not bear witness, be accursed" Book of Jubilees

      by Lying eyes on Tue Feb 14, 2006 at 05:59:01 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  Then... (1.68) something about it.

        Talk is cheap.  Go lie down on some railroad tracks.  When enough of you have died you will have some impact.

        Not that I am not advocating violence, I am advocating placing yourself in a position where they must perform violence on you to pursue their aims.

        If you do not oppose it then you support it.  And whimpering on a blog is not opposing it.

        Truckle the Uncivil, Nullus Anxietas Sanguinae. Economic Left/Right: -3.38 Social Libertarian/Authoritarian: -6.00

        by Truckle on Tue Feb 14, 2006 at 06:14:56 PM PST

        [ Parent ]

        •  excuse me (3.25)
          but you are an asshole.
          •  Thank you, Anthony......... (3.50)
            I second that opinion.

            "He that sees but does not bear witness, be accursed" Book of Jubilees

            by Lying eyes on Tue Feb 14, 2006 at 07:18:58 PM PST

            [ Parent ]

          •  no, he's not all wrong (4.00)
            ..our whimpering, myself included in that, on  blogs is not enough.

            We haven't stopped this....but we could.

            If we wanted to badly enough.

            The internet has been a marvelous tool of information about our goverment, but it also has become a way to distract us from taking the fight from the netsphere to the real has become a substitute for real life action.

            Hypocrisy in anything may deceive the cleverest and most penetrating man, but the least wide-awake of children recognizes it....

            by Cal45 on Tue Feb 14, 2006 at 09:32:36 PM PST

            [ Parent ]

            •  He is assuming (none)
              that posting on a blog and participating at a higher, more physical level are mutually exclusive when they are not.  He does not know how I or others here have participated in more physical ways.  

              I understand his anger but I think it is misplaced.

              The Christian Right is neither Witness Every Day

              by TXsharon on Wed Feb 15, 2006 at 07:16:38 AM PST

              [ Parent ]

        •  I don't know how to do that (3.60)
          lying on a railroad track thing.

          How about showing us how it's done?

          The Christian Right is neither Witness Every Day

          by TXsharon on Tue Feb 14, 2006 at 06:57:25 PM PST

          [ Parent ]

          •  I did show you how it is done... (4.00)
   1974 when I faced a military tribunal and told them that the only time I would shoot anybody other than is self defense was a person who gave me an order to shoot anyone else and tried to enforce it.

            You talk the talk, try walking the walk.

            I did.

            I also find it wuite interesting that essentially the smae comment gets very different ratings in different parts of the thread.

            Bottom line is, you either have the courage of your convictions or you don't.

            Truckle the Uncivil, Nullus Anxietas Sanguinae. Economic Left/Right: -3.38 Social Libertarian/Authoritarian: -6.00

            by Truckle on Tue Feb 14, 2006 at 10:06:51 PM PST

            [ Parent ]

            •  I certainly appreciate your sacrifices and (4.00)
              efforts to right wrongs.  My point is that you are posting on this website while putting others down for doing the same.

              Maybe the reason I got some 4s on my comment is becaue some people know me here and know what I have done to try to right wrongs.  No, I haven't yet parked myself on a railroad track partly because I have a child who has been abandoned by his father.  If a train kills me, he might have to go live with some crazy right-wing family!  That doesn't mean that I won't lie down on railroad tracks if given the opportunity.

              Trust that the FBI knows who I am and so do Bu$h's Secret Service men.

              The Christian Right is neither Witness Every Day

              by TXsharon on Wed Feb 15, 2006 at 04:11:41 AM PST

              [ Parent ]

        •  And what fucking railroad track are you (3.40)
          lying on.

          Some of have been working hard to prevent the shit that is happening and we have been working against Bush and the other scum since before they stole the election in 2000.

          Now it would appear you should either get busy helping in the work, or pipe down and go sit in a corner.

          I tried to refrain from commenting back to you up thread, but after you poped up every few comments with that crap I have heard enough of your shit.

          So take it or leave it, But what ever you do, I will not  elevate you to the level of even bing deserving of an argument.

          Aint scared of nobody cause I want my freedom. Aint scared of nobody cause I want my freedom now.

          by eaglecries on Tue Feb 14, 2006 at 07:02:14 PM PST

          [ Parent ]

          •  Oh... (2.33)
            ...I lay on my railroad track in 1970 (I said 1974 elsewhere - a mistake).

            So take it or leave it, But what ever you do, I will not  elevate you to the level of even bing deserving of an argument.

            How very republican of you.  

            Nevertheless nothing is going to change until some people show the courage of their convictions instead of playing in a relatively safe sandbox.  Read some about Ghandi.

            Whining and moaning won't do much good, particularly here where you are preaching to the choir.  It is long past time for action.

            Words are not enough.  People are dying.

            Truckle the Uncivil, Nullus Anxietas Sanguinae. Economic Left/Right: -3.38 Social Libertarian/Authoritarian: -6.00

            by Truckle on Tue Feb 14, 2006 at 10:12:22 PM PST

            [ Parent ]

        •  What? (none)
          I'm sorry, but I'm trying to get my mind the hell around the statement:

          "Not that I am not advocating violence, I am advocating placing yourself in a position where they must perform violence on you to pursue their aims."

          Huh?  You believe that pacifistic non-violence is to instigate violence?  What kind of double think is that?

          I read this comment of yours before and it left me fairly perplexed and now that i've thought on it even more, it seems you are more than a troll.  You are asking people to do things to expose themselves to violence to what... instigate other people (police?) to perform violence?  What in the name of the "revolution"?  Who are you, Pendejo from Marc and Marc (a "mythical little person" btw)?  Give me a freaking break!

          The reason to perform civil disobedience isn't to instigate the authorities to beat you up!

          What kind of weird toll kool-aid are YOU drinking?  Is that what you think civil disobedience is about? To get beat up?  How old are you anyway?  13?

          Give me a freaking break.

          This is not what civil disobedience is about.  You perform it for one reason, to stop something.  If you get beaten or are subjected to violence, you don't react with equal violence, you take it, but that's not the purpose.  You are trying to show people that power needs to be challenged.  You aren't, however trying to instigate an attack against you. No one wants to do this to be purposefully beaten, and if they do, they are fairly sick in their heads. Non-violent resistance isn't about trying to instigate people into violence, it's about the exact opposite, that through non-violent resistance we counteract the powers of control and violence by placing ourselves on the line with peaceful resistance and try to CHANGE the dynamic by example! Or even SHAME them into behaving with decency. And with some hope, enlightenment.

          Violence begets violence and sacrificing yourself on a railroad track is STUPID.  (I'm not even sure where you got that bizarre idea from).

          Truckle, you get a troll rating from me dude.  You are just trying to piss people off (and this response is also a pacifistic protest... against YOU).

          You need to take some non-violence protest courses.  I would suggest you look into Wellstone Action, but I think you are a bit dangerous for them right now.

          Until then, read up a little on Martin Luther King. He didn't want the police committing violence on his people. This isn't about "I'll die for you" to make a statment, or "I'll suffer for you".  He surely didn't want to die, Even though I know he knew they were gunning for him.  Nor did he want violence committed on him or his family.  Nor did he want the cops to react with that kind of reaction.

          He (and Coretta) was a man of non-violence and peace and cared about those who put their lives on the line with him. He was a very good man.

          Other suggestion: And read works by the Dalai Lama about his struggle to rectify situations.  In fact, just read anything he has.

          it's worthwhile reading...

          •  Ever heard of a... (none)
            ...straw man?  Well, you can follow one if you wish, I prefer to follow Ghandi.  I have not suggested the instigation of violence.  Quite the contrary I have suggested civil disobedience.

            It is long overdue.  People are dying every day.  Even more are suffering horribly and yet more are having their lives destroyed.  Right now, while you read this post.

            Those who will not put themselves in harm's way to stop it are by default condoning it.  Remeber Bush's little blessing?  "You are with us or you are against us".  It is time more than a few of you showed you were against him.  The only way you can effectively do that is to put yourself in harm's way.

            You think Fitzgerald doesn't know the risk he is taking?  The other whistle blowers and opposers?  There a small legion of them but not enough.

            You all (by which I mean most of course) seem to be waiting for someone else to raise their head, risk their neck.  In the meantime people die by the thousands.

            I would say there are a lot of people besides me that are pissed.

            As for the troll rating, ha!  I got enough of those.  I also got a few fours.  Enough to show that what I had to say had value.  Those that couldn't see it are not much better (and may be) Bush's enablers.

            At least you had the courtesy for dialog.  But if you are going to have dialog you should not try to censor the other side.

            Today is (I think) the first time I have rated and commented.  I feel it should be either one or the other.

            Oh, and it is quite likely that I was reading the words of the Dalai Lama before you were born (the last one of course).  This one seems to be a major improvement.

            Truckle the Uncivil, Nullus Anxietas Sanguinae. Economic Left/Right: -3.38 Social Libertarian/Authoritarian: -6.00

            by Truckle on Wed Feb 15, 2006 at 02:44:47 AM PST

            [ Parent ]

            •  Well... (none)
              "I am advocating placing yourself in a position where they must perform violence on you to pursue their aims."

              SOUNDS like looking to instigate violence.

              •  Not at all... (none)
                All violence is a dangerous practice and to be abhorred but the state rules (when it fails to govern) by having a legal monopoly on violence.  Without even considering the morality of it if you play that game you lose.  That is their turf.

                What you can do is get so much in the way that you make it very expensive, embarassing and generally difficult to achieve their aims.

                I am not talking about inciting a riot.  Do that and you lose.

                But how can people be concerned with their jobs, risk of arrest, etc. when people are dieing en mass daily?

                Truckle the Uncivil, Nullus Anxietas Sanguinae. Economic Left/Right: -3.38 Social Libertarian/Authoritarian: -6.00

                by Truckle on Wed Feb 15, 2006 at 06:42:04 AM PST

                [ Parent ]

            •  asdf (3.00)
              If the only point of putting oneself in harm's way is to that you can turn around and harass people on blogs, it sounds like a pretty pointless enterprise to me.

              You yourself have done nothing more here than the commenters you aim to insult, except to issue commands and name-drop Ghandi and the Dalai Lama.

              Put yourself in harm's way? To what end? When? Where? How? If you've got some suggestions in that department that are more productive than, say, laying down on a railroad track, then post them. Until you do that, you're just blowing hot air with the rest of us.

              Check out The Flypaper Theory, a group blog in Memphis, Tennessee

              by autoegocrat on Wed Feb 15, 2006 at 04:52:08 AM PST

              [ Parent ]

            •  May I ask (none)
              what you are doing to "put yourself on the railroad tracks" as you put it?  You say that you did your part by standing up to the draft in the 1970s, and while I respect that, does that somehow negate an obligation to do something now?

              I think many of the people who were angered by your original comment might have been more willing to listen if you'd said, "Instead of just posting on a blog, you (or better yet, 'we') shohuld do X, Y, and Z."

              •  If you wish. (none)
                I didn't stand up to the draft.  I went in.  I am not in law a pacifist because I believe in the right of self defence.  So, I went in and told them what I was likely to do with their wepons, well it is a long story.  But no one can call me a draft dodger or that I merely fought the draft.

                As for now.  I'm old, sick and tired and have dependants but even so, if my country were in as bad a pickle as yours I most certainly would do something.  But it isn't yet.  Quite.  It may still turn rom the dark side or be turned by the light of day.

                WRT to your last paragraph.  Due to your laws and mine any specific suggestion I might make could be taken as incitement, so I best not make any.

                Truckle the Uncivil, Nullus Anxietas Sanguinae. Economic Left/Right: -3.38 Social Libertarian/Authoritarian: -6.00

                by Truckle on Wed Feb 15, 2006 at 09:28:06 AM PST

                [ Parent ]

        •  Well, I admit I am a bit afraid (2.50)
          Will you hold my hand and lay down on the tracks with me?

          Yeah, I didn't think so.

    •  America, the world hates you! (none)
      "This is truly American ugliness that no other country in the world can compete with," journalist Saleh al-Humaidi told Reuters in Yemen.

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