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View Diary: Christofascist Neocon Zombie Brigade on Patrol (326 comments)

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  •  We will move from total support for abortion ... (none)
    ... if we want to govern again. I don't believe that the country supports carte blanche on all aspects of abortion, but that is the impression many non-Democrats have about our party's position on abortion. In the party itself, we need to have a conversation about the issue and come up with a position that encompasses more than the narrow view. There are certain principles we cannot compromise, but there are some points that need moderation.
    •  Good luck with that. (4.00)
      I'm sure you'll feel right at home in a Democratic Party that resembles nothing so much as the party it nominally opposes.

      Me, I'm not sticking with a party that sells my right to making my own medical decisions to the highest fucking bidder.

      •  I'll feel right at home in a party ... (none)
        ... that truly has a big tent and allows views on abortion that are not carte blanche, meaning abortion at any time for any reason, no questions asked. We haven't had that kind of party in a long time (about the same amount of time that we have been the minority party in Congress). We need a debate on what our party stands for with respect to abortion. I don't think it is carte blanche that most Democrats want but I may be wrong. I think there are a lot of very good Democrats like me that are uncomfortable with our party when it opposes parental notification of abortions for minors (like we oppose other medical procedures for minors without parental permission), or when we shut out the input of those who oppose late-term abortions. Safe, legal, and rare is a good mantra, but we also need to clarify that other views are acceptable within the Democratic Party, imo.
        •  False Argument (4.00)

          Carte blanche means unrestricted power to act at one's own discretion or unconditional authority.

          This is the tag you are repeatedly attaching to any person's discussion on this thread regarding the legal right to safe abortions.

          There is no argument being presented on this thread for "carte blanche" regarding abortion.  In fact, abortion is and has been legal in this country and many other countries for years now.

          And, in fact, legal abortion has well-defined legal and social restrictions that are practiced either state by state or according to the law as it has been repeatedly redefined over the years since Roe v. Wade.

          What seem to want is for the Democratic Party to endorse the idea that a women must be limited in her ability to control her own healthcare choices.

          Now, don't come after me again, or I'll be forced to use the R word on you again, you scoundrel!

          Seriously - My complaints above that you were using Republican tactics are actually factual.

          "Litmus test" was a phrase put forward by Republicans seeking to invalidate Senatorial concerns regarding conservative Supreme Court nominees years ago while they themselves put forward no nominees who aren't anti-abortion themselves, despite the fact that a majority of Americans, including Republicans support the right for a woman to privacy and choice regarding all health matters, including reproductive health.

          And this whole idea that the Democratic Party must reshape itself to resemble the Republican Party more as it concerns abortion if it wants to win again is straight out of Mary Matalin's playbook from two Presidential elections ago.

          I can't help it if the DLC has adopted the language, but I can object to it and call it for what it is - GOP talking points.

          I'm not accusing you of being a Republican.  I just wish more Democrats would really educate themselves about the law and take care to think about the language they use before they invalidate themselves by parroting their opposition in an effort to appear professional and powerful.

          I certainly respect your right to object to all and any aspects concerning privacy and a woman's right to control her own body.  

          My own position on your right to hold your values (please note) in no way restricts your ability to make decisions regarding your own healthcare, unlike your opinions about my values.

          That is to say, perhaps, that my tent may well be bigger than yours!

          •  So, you don't mind Democrats like me who ... (none)
            ... don't mind parental notification and don't like late-term abortions? That's the big tent that I would like to see for the Democratic Party, so that those who advocate such are not screamed at with the charge of being Republican stooges (yes, I realize that you backed off a bit on that last part). Philosophically, I guess we disagree. I believe that society has a role to play in childbearing decisions after things have gone past a certain point (24 weeks is my own personal belief), and I'm sure you don't except perhaps where funding abortions is involved. However, I'd like our big tent to be able to hold both views.
            •  I Believe Deeply (4.00)
              that people are free to believe as they wish regarding abortion, as long as they do not try and limit a woman's right to choose whether or not she has one.

              I also believe deeply that wedge issues like parental notification and late-term abortion are issues crafted by Republican operatives to confound discussion and confuse open debate on a matter really and practically decided upon deep within the private realm of women's daily lives.

              I also believe that Democrats who continually pick at these scabs, as you are here, are unwittingly (or wittingly!) acting to benefit the Republican strategy of dividing and destroying the Democratic Party.  The term "stooge" was yours, not mine, in fact.

              As far as your big tent goes, I just posted a diary on it.


              •  You are sadly mistaken if you think ... (none)
                ... my views on abortion have come in any way from the Republican Party. They come from my own thinking about the issue of abortion for more than 40 years. For instance, I oppose limiting parental notification because I just can't, in good conscience, agree to having optional medical procedures performed on children without their parent's permission. I think that seriously undermines the role of parent, so I oppose those who want to take away the right of a parent to know about and approve an abortion for a minor (with proper safeguards for special situations, such as incest). My objections are not some backroom positions crafted by Republicans and somehow posited in my unsuspecting brain, as you seem to believe. My views are just as heartfelt as your views, and just as well thought out and just as valid as your views. We need a party that can include both our views on this issue.
                •  But Look - (none)
                  the party does include both our views, by the look of this thread.

                  What you would have, it seems, is that my views be included but the Democratic platform be somehow different on the issue?

                  For the platform to say that the right to a safe and legal abortion for women needing the medical service does include your more limited view of the matter.  It is your more limited view of my rights to reproductive health services, including abortion, at my discretion, that is the more limited view of the thing.

                  By the way, I am now unaffiliated (after 29 years) by the way, and so the Big Tent is yours to play in.  I don't care what Party you belong to, or what wing of what Party you belong to.

                  I care about the right of each of us to assert our view.

                •  And the father is raping the (none)
                  daughter....please let's inform the father that his daughter is pregnant with his child AND grandchild....Kerry spoke of this during the debates....

                  Obviously, you need a few more years to think this through.....actually, I get a bit tired of males having opinions and voicing them about pregnancy.  

                  I don't make laws about your I?  Well...not yet, that is.

                  •  If you will calm down ... (none)
                    ... you will note that I did include special situations, such as incest, so save your emotional outburst for the theater. As for thinking that abortion is a women-only issue, get over it. There are two genders in our world, and we both have a say in what goes on in our social structure, as well as what we adopt as political positions concerning childbearing, sexual conduct, etc.
            •  Your choice to oppose late-term abortions (none)
              happens to fall into far-right socialization of the fetus as a born child.  Insinuates that the developing fetus has legal rights equal to the pregnant woman who grows and maintains it biologically, if not beyond.  We grant that the woman and her doctor(s) may handle her pregnancy as they most responsibly can in the first couple of trimesters . . . then, in the third we decide to force her into attempting a birth?

              It's a mandatory childbirthing law, essentially.

              You may not think of that perspective personally, but it's still playing into the far-right and Republican's "principled" argument to force childbirth on women due to various criteria.  And, it's being placed into law due entirely to divisive politics - the Republican politicians rarely care about this issue, personally.  It's just another wedge issue AND a motivator for a segment of rabid, entirely over-caffeinated supporters who help to provide cover for dirtier political backgrounds in given elections.

              The definition of what is the beginning of life is not the highest issue, rather the quality of living is an overriding one, I feel.  For both that of the pregnant woman and her potential, new human.

              Late-term abortions are rare to begin with, but that doesn't mean we can do away with them willy-nilly - medical reasons abound and frankly, it's not our place to decide what we feel is in the best interests of the pregnant woman or her condition (mentally, physically or financially), nor to invade her relationship with a physician due to our own personal moral view that cannot be said to be any more "correct" than hers.  There's enough grey to instead concentrate upon what we can agree: born children are humans and get social security numbers (in the USA) - let's help them grow up through improved healthcare, childcare and education support when and where it's needed.  Leave no born child behind in society.

              Meanwhile, we cannot find the same agreement on what is life - especially, what is going to be the quality of life - for the potential child beyond what this pregnant woman happens to know and face, therefore ordering her to attempt birthing the potential child becomes that much more an irrelevant morality about life's beginning that we cannot determine with much certainty from afar.

              Let's stay out of someone's morality when the waters are so grey and fraught with difficult decisions all-around.  Let's support the pregnant women for a change, then truly give them and their born kids a better chance to grow up healthy, safe and educated in this country.  There's so much more positive stuff we can agree on RIGHT NOW without attempting to enslave women, even by well-meaning accident.

    •  nope (4.00)
      Support for abortion didn't stop Clinton from becoming president.  Or Carter.  And it hasn't stopped anyone from getting elected to the House or Senate.

      There is a "one-issue hot button" that stops Dems from electoral success these days, and it's not abortion.  It's fear of the "damn Ay-rab terrorists".  If not for that and a blowjob, we'd still be in the Oval Office today.

      Believe what you want and agitate for what you want.  I'll be doing my best to insure that this party stays pro-choice.  Carte blanche, as you so nicely put it.  It IS that important.

    •  Carte Blanche (4.00)
      You've repeated this term over and over but have yet to tell us what limits on my reproductive rights you'd support.

      Tell us please, how would you choose to control my body?  What limits on my rights would you like to see passed in to law?

      Frodo failed - Bush has the ring. -8.75 / -6.10

      by Alegre on Mon Feb 27, 2006 at 10:52:11 AM PST

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    •  why do you talk so much without saying anything? (none)
      I actually don't want to feed your comments, but if you continue playing with MSOC and others just to make comments without committing to any real set of view points, I will. Which principles can you not compromise and what points need moderation?

      Just asking because you don't mention them.  

      A country is not only what it does - it is also what it puts up with, what it tolerates. - Kurt Tucholsky

      by mimi on Mon Feb 27, 2006 at 12:43:35 PM PST

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    •  It must be nice to not have a uterus. (4.00)
      You don't ever have to face the issue head on.  Do yourself a favor:  go escort at a clinic for a few weekends.  Put faces and stories onto all the uteruses you are so quick to condemn to forced breeding.

      New Orleans WILL rebuild because she is more than the sum of her architecture.

      by NOLAWitch on Mon Feb 27, 2006 at 04:43:59 PM PST

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      •  I would end up in jail (none)
        No shit.  I have four sisters and since I can remember I have always just "known" that if any of them decided to terminate pregnancy it was their own business.  And, thinking that someone would so much as insult one of them for their decision would bring the "brother" out in me sooooo fast.

        The no-choice/enforced birth demonstrators are just a mob picking on a volnerable group of people.  Like vultures and wolves circling the weak.

        American Engineer :== loser!

        by jnmorgan on Tue Feb 28, 2006 at 07:37:54 AM PST

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        •  You know it! (none)
          There were so many times I desperately wanted to take a baseball bat to the empty craniums of the protesters.  One of the other escorters got charged with assault by one of the protesters who crossed the line onto the property and bumped into her on purpose.  Everyone saw that it was the protestor's fault, but my friend got charged anyway because their ranks were willing to lie and say my friend did the bumping.  Assholes.

          I'm amazed I never ended up in jail as I have zero tolerance for high doses of stupidity.

          New Orleans WILL rebuild because she is more than the sum of her architecture.

          by NOLAWitch on Tue Feb 28, 2006 at 09:41:01 AM PST

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