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View Diary: "The only moral abortion is MY abortion" by Joyce Arthur (219 comments)

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  •  Adoption is even more shameful (10+ / 0-)
    Ok now that I have your attention:
    True Story.  I can not have children.  I was the director of a large corp. Pre-School with about 155 Children enrolled.  My best friend and lead teacher went on a blind date with my brother and woke up pregnant.  She was 26, GOP, single mother with two pre-school age children.  She couldnt afford the two children she had and knew she could not keep her baby.  I told her and my brother that God works in mysterious ways, that I would GLADLY adopt their child and EVERYONE would LIVE happily ever after!
    She refused to have the child because she feared the parents of the children at our Pre-school and the members of her church would think she was a MONSTER for being able to give up her baby.  She chose an abortion rather than life simply because of the social pressure she imagined.
    This emotional event really tested my pro-choice ideas and frankly boggled my mind.  
    •  wow. (0+ / 0-)
      crazy stuff.  Figuring out the pro-life/choice issue is like trying to untangle spaghetti with a toothpick.

      I'm caught between both views.  I understand the angle from both sides, but even then I don't know which side to fall on.  

      I'm pro-choice because pragmatically, it makes sense.  If your willing to whack the fetus (coz i'm sure its not an easy decision to make) then you have no business having a kid.  I also think people should have the right to do whatever the heck they want with their bodies.

      Then again, there's my emotionaly dominant reasoning, which could be considered pro-life, that poses this question to me, "Would I have been cool with the idea of my mom whacking me 33 years ago because of the inconvenience I would've posed to her?"  My life hasn't been a bowl of cherries, hell, it's mostly been pits, but when I ask myself that question, I can't seem to answer yes.  I would have rather lived this fucked up life than not to have lived at all.

      I'd be curious to see a poll that asked, "If your mother had chosen to abort you because of whatever circumstances she had going on at the moment, would you be cool with it being that you have experienced life?"  Of course the question is a bit crazy since if we were aborted we wouldn't be existing right now and therefore unable to answer this question but hopefully people know what I mean.

      Then again, I'm a dude so the pro-life/choice issue probably isn't any of my business.  I think all I can do is make sure I slap a jimmy on to avoid the whole clusterfuck to begin with.

      I'm just conlficted and really don't know which side to take because both sides have their point (and i mean "sides" in the abstract sense.  Not in that feminist vs. Christo-facist yelling contest sort of way.)

      so you think I'm a troll? Well kiss my hairy troll nalgas then

      by MetaProphet on Thu Mar 23, 2006 at 09:33:28 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  Pro-life arguments mentioning the individual (0+ / 0-)

        have the flaw that assumes that we would care if we had been aborted.  Of course, we wouldn't, and it is self-centered to imagine that we have some level of real importance.  I don't believe that we do, and the entire argument can be nullified by the argument that I wasn't aborted, and arguments of allegory are completely invalid.

        There has to be a balance between self-importance and empathy, and I believe that based on where you sit yourself, it determines where you lie in the political spectrum.

        For instance, I could most likely argue that the true blue in Congress is rare simply because most people in Congress are wealthy (and often extremely so), and the will to maintain wealth is a mark of self-importance.  True progressives on the other hand often note the importance of the group over the individual, and I would imagine that because of this thinking, they would never be wealthy enough to run.

        Of course, I could just be crazy.

        •  it's not about flaws man... (0+ / 0-)
          it's just a comment on how I see it.  If this issue was able to be solved by unflawed logic, then it wouldn't be an issue would it.  So what if it's self-centered?  Really now, who in the #@$@ isn't self-centered to any degree?

          You can weave all kinds of intellectual arguments about why pro-choice is the way to go (and I'm pro-choice btw), but it still doesn't address why I'm conflicted about the whole thing.

          so you think I'm a troll? Well kiss my hairy troll nalgas then

          by MetaProphet on Thu Mar 23, 2006 at 12:03:27 PM PST

          [ Parent ]

      •  What if she had just ... (2+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        Tripleg, Bionic

        What if your mother had just chosen to go out the night you were conceived instead of staying home and getting pregnant?  What if she had chosen to make any number of different choices in her life that would have resulted in you never being a person?  The fact is that without a nearly infinite set of exact circumstances occuring throughout the history of time you would not exist.  So obsessing over this one particular point in time is delusional.  You were not a person before a brain formed.  During the first trimester an abortion is no different from a woman choosing not to have sex on any given night.

        •  Ah thank you for pointing out that I'm (0+ / 0-)
          delusional.  Since I lack any capacity to think in terms of my reality, I suppose that my mother really should've aborted me being that I'm truly a waste of life.  Thanks for abstracting it all out for me and dehumanizing it to the point where human life is but a tiny piece of shit at the mercy of infintisimal variables. Now I am no longer conflicted with your wonderful insight into the matter.

          My comment wasn't about the logic of the argument. My logic makes me pro-choice though I can understand the other side of the argument as well.  I am totally aware of the irrational aspect of my comment.  I mentioned that.  Nonetheless, it's something I can't wrap my head around with logic.  Excuse me for being a imperfect human being.  

          If your life is really that linear and logical with a nice rational explanation for every quandry humanity faces, I really pitty you.

          so you think I'm a troll? Well kiss my hairy troll nalgas then

          by MetaProphet on Thu Mar 23, 2006 at 12:16:28 PM PST

          [ Parent ]

          •  Really? (0+ / 0-)

            You pity me for being logically consistent?  I find that hard to believe.  I also think that I made a pretty reasonable point (that the point of conception is no more compelling of an instant in the chain of life than the point of procreation, the point of implantation, and many other points along the way) and instead of responding to it you chose to focus on my using the term delusional.

            I did not mean to call you delusional.  I apologize for my post coming off that way.  I was referring to people who obsess over the matter, which I did not take to include you as you seemed to be seperating yourself from them in your original post.  However, after rereading my post I can see how you took it to mean that I was calling you delusional, so I am sorry for not being more clear.

      •  i'm an excellent mother (3+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        Bionic, MissAnneThrope, splashy

        and i've "whacked 2 fetuses" as you so eloquently put it.  once at 18 before having my son and once at 28 after.

        each circumstance is different.

        having an abortion has absolutely no bearing on your capacity to care for children.

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