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  •  the whole race card/flag (1+ / 0-)
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    thing is a big fat red herring in my view...

    People are not reading the bills, the provisions, the labor arbitrage clauses, the impact on wages, ideas to tie in "guest worker" permaslave Visas to wages and so on.

    yawn on the whole topic over here.

    by BobOak on Mon Apr 03, 2006 at 02:26:39 PM PDT

    [ Parent ]

    •  so why are you reading this diary (2+ / 0-)
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      lgmcp, balancedscales

      if it makes you yawn...why are you... (ah nevermind)

      The issue involves everything you stated AS WELL AS ethnicity.  Aspects of the Republican party are insisting on making that part of the conversation and their stereotypes/charges/misinformation must be addressed by those of us who have a stake in it.
      "Race card" is a term I despise.  It makes it sound like it's all just a big game.  For many of us who are Hispanic and deal with epithets and dirty looks, etc... we do get concerned about some of the discussions taking place.

      I would love nothing more than if this whole immigration debate was confined to just those legitimate economic issues.  But the reality is different sometimes.

      We are no longer represented.

      by diplomatic on Mon Apr 03, 2006 at 02:33:17 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  The term 'race card' (1+ / 0-)
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        is used to justify their xenophobia and racism.  Just because you don't believe you're a racist and you "have a black or mexican friend" doesn't mean that you don't have those feelings deep down inside, residual effects from centuries of institutionalized racism and bigotry.  The term "race card" is offensive.  

        •  nope (0+ / 0-)

          I'm sorry but as I comment back a major fight by the Democrats which I diary is rolling off the screen...
          with pretty much no attention.

          so while you call anyone who says anything about US jobs is now a racist and this is a red herring which it is...

          people are not even supporting their own party when it comes to trying to save US jobs.

          It's easy to call people doesn't have to read or  understand macroeconomics, labor economics or pay any attention to the realities of domestic economic realities and fundamental facts on a labor market.

          by BobOak on Mon Apr 03, 2006 at 04:08:38 PM PDT

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          •  I understand your point (0+ / 0-)

            and I liked your diary, but I stand by my views on the term.  I think it's dismissive.

          •  also, regarding your site (0+ / 0-)

            I agree with the principles of your group and think that what you are trying to accomplish is a noble and worthy cause.  I don't see how attacking the immigrants is the answer to the problem.  Let's target the greedy corporate owners and governments that steal from their citizens and rob them of the ability to earn a living in their own country.  

            •  ty (0+ / 0-)

              I agree, and that's why this whole thing is a diversionary tactic.

              Probably you are not aware that the race card/flags/hate groups are being covered on the other side also...believe it or not there are Hispanic "hate groups"/separatist groups out there and that's making it to the conservative blogs.  While Dailykos puts on the front page the flag thing..the conservative side is ranting and raving on the flag thing and the hate/"lets take back our land" Hispanic fringe" groups.

              What's happening is no one is actually analyzing the legislation to stop labor arbitrage...on either side.

              Case in point is the H-1B Visa...going completely under the radar and if that increase passes it's pretty much the death knell to US engineers.

              So, please realize I'm saying this to anybody who posts this kind of crud, every side.  

              It's a hugely complex problem, labor economics..
              (there's reason it takes grad school to get a handle on it!) and it is possible to give a "pathway to citizenship" to people who have been here, established and so forth, be fair to those already "in the queue" and stop labor arbitrage...

              but it takes a lot of diligence.  

              Lou Dobbs today said on his show, "why not make it a felony for employers to use illegal labor".

              Now, damn straight...and it's so difficult to get through the race bait/flag thing that the damn DOL
              is not enforcing labor law at all..

              and much of the Senate bill will just keep the status quo...

              no one is promoting the idea of truly identifying legal labor, tying guest worker Visas to wages directly (if wages greatly increase it indicates a true labor shortage)...

              and discussing future legislation to deal with the labor arbitrage aspects to the trade agreements.

              Document fraud is a major component in this and truly civil rights people need to be involved and we need a system that actually works, will not allow fraudulent documents or id theft to happen, yet does not violate privacy rights..

              not even being discussed right now.

              Why I say it's a red herring is, believe this or not, there are employer sanctions in the house bill and there is some discussion of adding more...
              but those provisions probably are not going to be supported due to the emotionalism and diversion
              due to raising everyone's hairs on the racist/flag/hate groups rhetoric.

              It stops people from thinking and puts them into an emotional knee jerk reaction.


              by BobOak on Mon Apr 03, 2006 at 04:42:56 PM PDT

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              •  I think that (1+ / 0-)
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                this is two seperate issues.  The outsourcing that is going to India and other parts of the world, the sending of United States service and technology jobs, is a different issue, in my opinion.  The hypocritical discrimination towards Latin immigrants is a different issue.  I'm not going to say "they're taking jobs Americans won't do", but I think that the hit the engineering sector has taken has very little to do with Mexico, El Salvador, etc.

                Racism is being thrown in the air to make people watch it, taking their eyes off of other issues, on that we agree.  My issue was with the term "race card".  As a hispanic I find it offensive and dismissive.  However, it's a term that we all attach a definition to, and mine just happens to be negative.  

                I agree, the fact that the work visas have been increased to 115,000 (i think), without even a word from the msm is outrageous.  

                The term "race card" makes me have an emotional, knee-jerk reaction.  Hey, I'm human.

                •  ok (0+ / 0-)

                  give me another way to say "raising hairs on back of your neck" as a diversion technique and I'll use it.



                  by BobOak on Mon Apr 03, 2006 at 04:59:14 PM PDT

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                  •  deal (0+ / 0-)

                    I'll work on that one.  

                    i found the stories regarding the personal effect of outsourcing much more effective than attacking immigrants.  

                    I was moved by the stories.  Thanks.

                    •  I do my best (0+ / 0-)

                      Believe me, I have banned many a racist over there...
                      it's a very tough issue labor economics...very tough because we're dealing with people...
                      and things can get distorted very easily...
                      but yes, I am a "bleeding heart liberal" very committed to equality and diversity.  I wouldn't be on these blogs and if I trolled over in the conservative blogs, I'd be outed in probably a day or two over discrimination, affirmative action and pro choice.


                      by BobOak on Mon Apr 03, 2006 at 05:08:25 PM PDT

                      [ Parent ]

                      •  hey (1+ / 0-)
                        Recommended by:

                        civil discourse, being able to discuss opposing viewpoints in a way that benefits us all, is what this is all about.  

                        •  also (0+ / 0-)

                          call it what it is...

                          an unfair and unethical way to cloak the true problems in an emotional issue.  They're not using "the race card", they're hiding they're evil deeds and intentions and strapping them on to the backs of minorities, in order to get knee-jerk reactions.

                          doesn't roll off the tongue quite as well as race card, but it doesn't seem quite as dismissive to racism and discrimination.

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