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  •  You realize that... (none / 1)

    that your approach involves deception, treats the very people you are trying to defend as if they aren't quite bright enough to deal with the unvarnished truth and is every bit as condescending as you seem to think Dean's remarks were.

    by Phil S on Tue Dec 02, 2003 at 07:00:40 PM PDT

    •  Re: You realize that... (none / 0)

      I think that there is a way to engage people without pandering to them.  I have written a couple of diaries on this topic.  Gain people's trust, don't alienate them, focus on commonalities and be the kind of person they want to emulate.  I think Dean was trying to honestly reach out to these folks.  It just stuck out as awkward, because politicians typically don't reach out, they pander.

      In all, it doesn't seem like any harm was done.  He gained new respect in the eyes of, or at least intrigued, Southerners that I know.

      Give to the Daily KOS 8!

      by Aaron Gillies on Tue Dec 02, 2003 at 07:11:42 PM PDT

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    •  Re: You realize that... (none / 0)

      your approach involves deception, treats the very people you are trying to defend as if they aren't quite bright enough to deal with the unvarnished truth and is every bit as condescending as you seem to think Dean's remarks were.

      Perhaps.

      But it's certainly not as visibly and overtly insulting to the taget audience.

      And -- this is very important -- politics is the art of PERSUASION, last I looked. To do it properly AND leave the most room for the free will of the folks you are trying to get on your side, your goal should be to manage perceptions, gently move existing ideas in a favorable direction and cajole agreement.

      You really can't simply stuff voters into their cat carriers and then sort it out with them later.

      But that's increasingly the impression I get from the Dean campaign, that they think they it will be possible just grab the electorate by the tail and force it to their will, make the American people understand dozens of new (even revolutionary!) things their way, simply because they're so gosh-darn RIGHT!

      For example: "All we have to do is tell these dimwits the facts, and they'll understand all about the deficit. Their ignorance and selfishness will instantly vanish. They won't want their tax breaks anymore, and they won't believe Republican propaganda about them, either!"

      You know, it's nice to have faith in your fellow human beings, but it's wiser to have faith in the art of the POSSIBLE.

      by Julia Grey on Tue Dec 02, 2003 at 07:32:09 PM PDT

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      •  Re: You realize that... (none / 0)

        For example: "All we have to do is tell these dimwits the facts, and they'll understand all about the deficit. Their ignorance and selfishness will instantly vanish. They won't want their tax breaks anymore, and they won't believe Republican propaganda about them, either!"

        I'm sorry. I just don't see it like this.  I don't get any sense that Dean or his supporters expect to simply recite facts and expect all to cow before their brilliance. Again, I think Dean's message was intended as a wake-up call to Democrats, not an insult to working class Southern whites.  There's no question it was clumsily worded, but it will live on only if folks like you keep dredging it up trying to make it into something it's not.

        Actually, I think Dean gets it.  These folks are not the ignorant rabble easily swayed with scare tactics that the Rs have taken them for all these years. And I share his sense that these people are aware that all those Republican votes haven't gotten them jack s**t.  But they still don't trust the Democratic Party because they see it as a party of panderers who try to be all things to all people.

        So the Dean campaign comes in and tells folks that they want to help them with the things that matter most and affect their everyday quality of life. Whether you're white or black, you and your kids need health care.  Your kids need a decent education so they have a chance at life.  And you need jobs and job security so you can put a roof over their heads, food in their bellies, and clothes on their backs.

        It's OK to be against abortion.  We're not going to force you to have one. But neither are we going back to those days when poor women were butchered in back alleys while rich women saw Park Avenue doctors. Our insistence on fair treatment for gays and African-Americans means will will also insist on fair treatment for you. And we respect and will preserve your right to pray anywhere anytime, but we will also respect the beliefs of others and resist codifying religion into law.

        Straight talk that's not condescending. I believe most Southerners can respond to that.

        by Phil S on Tue Dec 02, 2003 at 08:18:52 PM PDT

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        •  Re: You realize that... (none / 0)

          I don't get any sense that Dean or his supporters expect to simply recite facts and expect all to cow before their brilliance.

          In all fairness, perhaps this is because you are one of them?  Or at least is this possible?  I do often have that sense, not so much from the Dean campaign (which I don't pay so much attention to) but from the sample of Dean supporters that I run across on the Internet.  (In person they are less "certain" I must say.  Perhaps its the combination of the medium and the context of argumentation that fuels this, I dunno).  

          All you have to do is read this thread and the one from last night to see it, but I could pick out almost any random thread from dKos and find it.  

           

          Words can sometimes, in moments of grace, attain the quality of deeds. --Elie Wiesel

          by a gilas girl on Tue Dec 02, 2003 at 10:50:15 PM PDT

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          •  Re: You realize that... (none / 0)

            In all fairness, perhaps this is because you are one of them?  Or at least is this possible?

            Absolutely possible. I'm human too.

            I see two general types of Dean supporters in threads around the blogosphere. (I stopped reading the Dean blog itself because I OD'd on exclamation points.) There's the "Dean's great! I support Dean! End of argument!" types, whose arrogance do the candidate and his more thoughtful supporters no good and actually alienates folks.  (In fairness, Wes Clark seems to attract a fair number of these types also).

            Then there are the more rational supporters who attempt to analylize and then offer honest opinions.  Folkbum comes immediately to mind, but there are many others.  This group, of which I'd like to think I'm part, has it's biases, too.  We've picked a candidate to support, after all, and we are interested in persuading others to support him.

            I may be guilty of being myopic and focussing on the latter group while ignoring the former when I make remarks like the one you highlight. I tend to do this with Clark supporters, too, bypassing the starstruck in an attempt to try and understand what the man's appeal is and why it is so lost on me.

            by Phil S on Wed Dec 03, 2003 at 10:49:21 AM PDT

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