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  •  Re: What Dean Doesn't Get (none / 0)

    Oh come on.

    Rather than address the substance of what Dean was arguing, Edwards demagogued and implied that what matters was not what Dean was saying but who he is (apparently, according to Edwards, making his arguments irrelevant).  

    Either he believes that certain types of people shouldn't be talking about certain things, merely based on where they're from or the color of their skin or how rich they're parents were (a deplorable position) or he was simply pandering to the southern pride vote.  

    Neither of which are very appealing.

    -- The going's good in the land of the free, but I live in another country. -- Bob Hillman

    by J from VJ on Tue Dec 02, 2003 at 10:54:42 AM PDT

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    •  Re: What Dean Doesn't Get (none / 0)

      No, you come on.  Try for once, not to see something through Dean-colored glasses.  I say this as someone who loathes John Edwards campaign and what he stands for.  

      It was clearly obvious that Edwards' reaction was emotional, not contrived.  Whether or not it is "correct" and you all have debated this on the threads for a long time -- tired of "pandering" to southerners feelings, etc. it does exist. You can't have it both ways.  Even though I agree with the sentiment of what Dean was trying to say, it was foolish and foolhearty on several levels, the first two of those being the albeit emotional but nonetheless very real responses that both Edwards and Sharpton evidenced.  

      The main reason it was foolhearty is the reason Julia has suggested in this entry.  He is trying to wash over what really is the core and is thinking far too simplistically about race not just in the South but in the entire country -- a problem that liberal whites have had for a very long time.  All of the discussions that say well, of course poor white southerners should vote with us and throw up their hands in desperation at the stupidity and racisim of Southerners miss how powerful and meaningful this is.  I'm not sure I agree with Julia that it can't be overcome, it probably can, in fact it must at some point, but the way to overcome it is NOT to ignore the racial part of it or to pretend that racial questions are passe in 21 century US.  That's what makes the comment foolish, because it shows how unaware he is of the entire sets of interrelated and interlocking issues, thinking it can be dealt with purely pragmatically.  

      Both of the comments that Dean supporters want to reduce to political opportunism on the part of Edwards and Sharpton are really indicative of the incredibly complex sets of social, historical and ideological issues that are tied up around race relations, economic questions, southern identity and the confederate flag.  They should have been expected and we all need to pay attention to them because they offer a glimpse of what is tied up in the package that Dean has tried to open.  I don't fault him for opening it, but I do fault him for thinking its a simple one-dimensional issue.  

      If you want to dismiss Edwards and Sharpton's comments as "pure politics" you miss something much more important.  That moment could have been a great one for opening up a new conversation, a difficult one but a great one.  However, in classic Democratic Party expedience, all three of the candidates ran away from that moment.  But don't be so foolish as to write it all off as "politics as usual".  It wasn't by any stretch of the imagination.

      Words can sometimes, in moments of grace, attain the quality of deeds. --Elie Wiesel

      by a gilas girl on Tue Dec 02, 2003 at 11:08:43 AM PDT

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      •  Re: What Dean Doesn't Get (none / 0)

        You seem to have missed the first part of my 'or' statement. I offered "pure politics" as one possibility, not the only one.

        It might not have been politics. You seem to be suggesting that Edwards was evincing a genuine emotional reaction. Which I find strange, since Dean had been making that point for months and months as has been documented extensively, so for Edwards to have his emotional epiphany on national television seems awfully convenient. In any case, even if I accept that, then what you're asking me to accept is that Edwards and others who are resentful of Dean-The-Mighty-Northerner are correct in their position that where you come from and what color your skin is matter more than what you say and what policies you espouse. As I said, I find that deplorable.

        I went to a couple of very fine educational institutions where I took undergraduate and graduate courses in things like women's studies and religious studies and other liberal arts (and also acquired a couple of technical degrees along the way) and where we talked at length about the complex, interlocking, interrelated issues such as gender, race, and class and how deep and weighty these things are. I've got bell hooks on the bookshelf right next to me.  I agree -- this is deep stuff. But, I also note that all of those ivory tower conversations have solved very few real problems.

        You can find fault with Dean's pragmatic approach -- fine. It's what I appreciate most about it him -- the problems this country faces are so deep and so systemic and we are heading in such the wrong direction that I think a heads-down executive problem-solver heading in the right direction (even if not far enough) is exactly the right antidote. I think it's about time we tried just slicing through the knottiness (as someone alluded previously), instead of dancing around filling up bookshelves worth of paper exploring the complexity and rarely actually accomplishing anything.

        You assume Dean believes these issues are "one-dimensional," I don't. What I assume is that he actually wants to accomplish something and make forward progress instead of suffering from analysis paralysis.

        As for "Dean-colored glasses," that's really not even worthy of a response. If I'd heard Edwards make his "people like you" remark before I knew Howard Dean's name I'd be just as offended. It's appallingly parochial from someone who wants to be a national candidate.

        -- The going's good in the land of the free, but I live in another country. -- Bob Hillman

        by J from VJ on Tue Dec 02, 2003 at 12:04:45 PM PDT

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        •  Re: What Dean Doesn't Get (none / 0)

          In any case, even if I accept that, then what you're asking me to accept is that Edwards and others who are resentful of Dean-The-Mighty-Northerner are correct in their position that where you come from and what color your skin is matter more than what you say and what policies you espouse. As I said, I find that deplorable.

          No, that's not what I'm asking you to accept at all.  In fact, I believe that the only way to address this issue is to be MORE upfront about the racial dimensions and the way they are woven into other dimensions, enabling those of us who want to ignore them (in the South and the North and the Midwest and the West Coast and all the comfortable suburban homes where white folks have been trying to escape the question for 45 years)to do so.  Its clear that what Dean meant was "rednecks" both Southern and not Southern (plenty of pick-up driving, cf decal wearing white folk who vote R in his part of the country, the rust belt and the mountain west.) so I wish he'd just said that, then clarifed it with a context that demonstrated he understands how bloody complicated this all is.  His trying to simplify it is what got him into trouble, and claiming moral high ground over overt racism in a country that still functions with racial structures to this day is both condescending and a little disingenuous.  That's the problem the Democratic party has in the South, but with folks like me on the left, too.

          Words can sometimes, in moments of grace, attain the quality of deeds. --Elie Wiesel

          by a gilas girl on Tue Dec 02, 2003 at 12:27:09 PM PDT

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      •  Re: What Dean Doesn't Get (none / 0)

        It was clearly obvious that Edwards' reaction was emotional, not contrived

        Come now.  Dean's been using that same line in his speech for the better part of a year.  Do you really mean to suggest that neither Sharpton nor Edwards had ever heard it.

        No.  That is not at all credible.  Edwards had that line rolled up his sleeve, and he was just waiting for the right moment to use it.  Way to go, John.  Way to appeal to people's better instincts.  Way to rise above.  Or not.

        •  Re: What Dean Doesn't Get (none / 0)

          Come now.  Dean's been using that same line in his speech for the better part of a year.  Do you really mean to suggest that neither Sharpton nor Edwards had ever heard it.

          Actually, I do believe that.  People don't follow Dean's speeches as closely as you guys do.  I'd never heard the line before and it was stupid/foolish/condescending in that presentation.  I'm told, however, by those of you who do follow the speeches more closely, that he normally contextualizes the line in a way he didn't this time, which made it more offensive.  In that case, an emotional reaction (which Edwards' clearly was, I don't think he's that good of an actor, frankly) is plausible.  

          Its not plausible to someone who has followed the Dean campaign for a long time, is used to the remark and who agrees with it, that it might offend (even if heard before) given the way it was presented that night.  But it certainly is plausible to other people.  

          That's the issue.  

          The other issue is a bigger one, that I outlined above, both Edwards and Sharptons "responses" are much more than politics at play, they represent two different threads of what it wrapped up in the issue.  And its important that those threads be unwound and examined.  

          I don't look at these things as simply about the election, the way most folks here do, that enables me, sometimes to see some things that often get overlooked in the shuffle to elevate and eliminate candidates.

          My point is simply that alternative explanations/understandings are in fact plausible.  And one doesn't have to "twist" in order to see them. The truth isn't always clear cut.  

          Words can sometimes, in moments of grace, attain the quality of deeds. --Elie Wiesel

          by a gilas girl on Tue Dec 02, 2003 at 12:39:02 PM PDT

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          •  Re: What Dean Doesn't Get (none / 0)

            Actually, I do believe that.  People don't follow Dean's speeches as closely as you guys do.

            We're not talking about "people" in general, we're talking about two of Dean's opponents in the campaign!  No, I'm afraid it's not at all believeable that Sharpton and Edwards had never heard that comment or that their "outrage" was genuine.

            •  Re: What Dean Doesn't Get (none / 0)

              No, I'm afraid it's not at all believeable that Sharpton and Edwards had never heard that comment or that their "outrage" was genuine.

              While the first may be true (I doubt if Sharpton actually pays very close attention to his opponents stump speeches, and he doesn't have much of a staff to follow these things, so its plausible, but you seem certain that it isn't so no more discussion is warranted there), even having heard the comment before does not preclude a genuine angry response.  Which is what I have been arguing; the chances are just as likely that the comment did (or had all along) made Edwards angry.  It was pretty clear from his response (at least over the radio, which is where I heard the debate)that he was actually angry.  

              Did he use it for political gain?  Without a doubt, but I can't say for certain (as you appear able to do) that the whole thing was simply a ploy or an "attack". The anger could have been and certainly seemed to be genuine.  And it did not appear to be a canned response (otherwise he would have come up with a better one I have to assume; the guy's not stupid).  You appear to disagree and find that the only reasonable explanation is to smear Dean, or to pander.  You seem unwilling to even admit, grudgingly, that there could be anger there.  That the original comment from Dean could insult.  I'm only saying that in interpreting the event as such, there's a lot of other information that goes by the wayside, and that information is actually pretty useful.

              There's a certainty around here that is so easily reinforced because so many people see things the same way.  That makes for a "self-evident" nature to things that aren't always as self-evident when you step away from the shared vision.  If I'm cranky, its because trying to explain this over and over again to the conventional field of vision around here has worn me down.  I don't have as much patience or a sense of humor about it as I used to, I will admit.  

              I personally find that kind of certainty dangerous, so I will always challenge it, sometimes not so wisely.  Obviously many people take comfort in it.  I'm not going to argue with you about what is "obvious" because nearly everything you've described as obvious I can see a plausible and credible alternative explanation for.  It may not be true, that explanation, but it is certainly plausible and credible.  On the other hand, your obvious explanation may not be true either.  

              Words can sometimes, in moments of grace, attain the quality of deeds. --Elie Wiesel

              by a gilas girl on Tue Dec 02, 2003 at 04:14:21 PM PDT

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      •  Re: What Dean Doesn't Get (none / 0)

        The main reason it was foolhearty is the reason Julia has suggested in this entry.  He is trying to wash over what really is the core and is thinking far too simplistically about race not just in the South but in the entire country -- a problem that liberal whites have had for a very long time

        I'm sorry, and I mean no direct offense, but this is complete bullshit.  He's not washing over anything.  He's attacking it head-on.   You and Julia seem to think that he doesn't get that racism is the core of this thing, and post after post, it seems to me your main evidence for this is that anybody who got it would know how foolhardy it is to bring it up and suggest that we might try to end it.

        You may think it's politically unwise to attack it head-on.  But that's a far different thing than not getting what "it" is.

        Dean has been talking about this from the beginning.  He's been talking about southern Republican racist strategies and their relationship to voting behavior from the beginning.  He knows what this is about.  He just doesn't (or didn't) agree with you and Julia that you can't try to address it out in the open.  Again, you may think that's foolhardy politics, but it's not evidence that he doesn't get that race is at the very core of this issue.

        cdm at northwestern dot edu

        by cdmarine on Tue Dec 02, 2003 at 02:19:13 PM PDT

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        •  Re: What Dean Doesn't Get (none / 0)

          He's not washing over anything.  He's attacking it head-on.  

          No, this is where I disagree with everybody on this thread, and probably on this site.  He is emphatically NOT attacking it head-on.  He is speaking about it less euphemistically than it is usually spoken about, but its not head-on.  Talking about economic issues eclipsing racial issues doesn't take up the subject head-on at all, its a diversionary tactic to make it be about something else because it is far too difficult to do it the right way.  

          While I applaud Dean's instincts to take up the issue, I blame him for doing it sloppily and half-heartedly.  He's doing it in a way that is comfortable for his non-Southern, non-poor, primarily white base.  That's not dealing with anything head-on.  The fallacy that Dean's approach has (and that many here share, it seems) is that racial issues and economic issues are AT ODDS with one another, rather than seeing the ways they work together.  Dean seems to be saying the racism would fade away if people just acted in their economic interests, without any attention to how the economic interests are still working in decidedly racialized ways.  

          Issues about the South and race are far more complex than "the South is filled with resentful white racists".  It is, but the way their r esentful white racism works is on several levels at one time.  His attempt is not head-on at all, because it refuses to acknowledge and understand how this works.  Otherwise he'd have developed a different approach.

          I don't agree with Julia that these folks are "hopeless".  I do agree that we waste time focusing on them.  I don't agree with Dean supporters that Dean is not pandering.  He is, but in ways no body wants to see, because it hits way too close to home. And I don't agree that he is cutting through BS.  I would grant you that his intentions are well placed, but I fear (and the reason it makes me so angry) is that with his not very thoughtful blundering and rather dangerous simplifications he will take the discussion down a path that makes it even harder than it is now to have the kind of difficult but necessary, "head-on" discussions we really need to have.  

          The only public person I've ever heard in the mainstream of US politics who has taken a head-on attack to this issue is Lani Guinier. It just doesn't happen very much, and perhaps Howard Dean is the person to begin the process, but if so, he'd better get a much more sophisticated understanding of what he is talking about in order to facilitate and negotiate the varying threads and the contradictory interests at play.  

          Words can sometimes, in moments of grace, attain the quality of deeds. --Elie Wiesel

          by a gilas girl on Tue Dec 02, 2003 at 03:59:51 PM PDT

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