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  •  Re: Dean: Dems Doomed if He Loses Nomination (none / 1)

    Well, every other candidate is saying that he is not electable, so I see nohing wrong with him fighting back.  Do you?

    He also has a point.  Many of the Dean supporters will stay home in Novemeber if Dean does not win.  Part of the support for him is a referendum on the Democratic establishment.  They see the other candidates as either being a part of the eslablishment, or backed in secret by the extablishment.

    This is just a plain old fact.  I would urge them not to, but I think that mant of them have made up their mind.

    I will say that I will at least hold my nose while voting for some of the other candidates.  That is the least that I can do as a Democrat.

    Todo Bien: It's All Good
    Young Philly Politics

    by charlesdog12 on Sun Dec 28, 2003 at 07:25:32 PM PDT

    •  Re: Dean: Dems Doomed if He Loses Nomination (none / 1)

      I don't think many Dean supporters will stay home in November.  But I think few of them would work as hard for another candidate as they are for Dean.

      Not that it will be an issue.

      by katiebird on Sun Dec 28, 2003 at 07:32:48 PM PDT

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      •  Re: Dean: Dems Doomed if He Loses Nomination (none / 0)

        I will not work for another candidate, especially because if he loses it will be the DLC etc... who bring him down in all likelyhood. We have not really lived in A democracy for awhile now guys, they just don't even really bother to hide it anymore. Dean is taking away the power of the special interests, by convincing people they have a chance. Imagine that, a President who doesn't owe his job to the oil companies, or whomever. If the leaders of the party bring him down it proves that they have no more interest than the Repugs in Democracy. Don't know what I would do, maybe move to Canada.

        by PLS on Sun Dec 28, 2003 at 10:41:47 PM PDT

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        •  Re: Dean: Dems Doomed if He Loses Nomination (none / 0)

          Many Dems, I believe, see Dean as the last hope for resurrecting the Party in the spirit they envision.  Dean's candidacy means more than just a Dem to run against Bush, which is what the other candidates really seem like.  Much is riding on Dean for a lot of long-suffering Democrats who feel disenfranchised, marginalized, and impotent.  If a Dean loss looks like an eighty-six by Party establishment, it will be crushing for many of his supporters.  Simply plugging in another Democrat and expecting these deeply committed Dean supporters to invest is naive; it just won't happen.  For others, though, who are more tepid in their support, plugging in another Dem won't be that big a deal.  Dean is speaking about the former, however, and not the latter.  If people are having trouble fathoming that--irrespective of our shared deep-seated contempt for George Bush--then people simply don't understand the Dean candidacy.

          I prefer this brand of Socratic inquiry, actually: WTF is wrong with you?

          by lightiris on Sun Dec 28, 2003 at 11:20:32 PM PDT

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    •  Re: Dean: Dems Doomed if He Loses Nomination (3.00 / 3)

      I don't know.  Looking back to '92, its clear that the Democratic party would be in better shape today if Clinton hadn't made it into the White House.  Nobody says it but its true.  Over 50 House seats lost that first mid-term election; control of the Senate lost; Governorships and state legislatures lost.  

      Bush the Elder had a healthcare plan.  As a lame duck president looking for a place in history, it would have been a cinch to push him farther along towards a national healthcare system.  Instead, I watched the arrogance of President Clinton appointing his wife to come up with a plan and she completely blew it like it wasn't important.  

      Clinton's presidency facilitated the rise of Republicans like DeLay; there was a non-ideological personal animus towards Clinton among so many Americans and it empowered Republicans like DeLay the most.

      So I look back at those years and I'm not so sure I would vote for any Democrat nominated if Dean didn't make it.  Kerry and Gephardt - what to make of them?  They voted against the first Gulf War resolution back in '90-'91.  How to explain the way they were so supportive of this war?  I have the same feeling about them as I had with Clinton:  I'm not sure I know what their priorities and values are.  Clark is a total mystery.  What to make of him?  He voted for Reagan and Bush I and he's had a career of carrying out orders.  What does he really believe?

      by Lois on Sun Dec 28, 2003 at 08:29:25 PM PDT

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      •  Re: Dean: Dems Doomed if He Loses Nomination (3.40 / 5)

        For gods sake I'm so sick of the whining and crying about the Clintons.

        Get over it Lois it was ten years ago

         and you're threatening to not vote just tells me you're a typical dont want to take responsibilty for anything person.

        by mickey on Sun Dec 28, 2003 at 08:42:19 PM PDT

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        •  Re: Dean: Dems Doomed if He Loses Nomination (none / 0)

          Clinton also contributed to the demonizing of welfare and was a generally weak voice for abortion rights, education spending and  affirmative action.  His humanitarian wars and "peacekeeping" occupations
          were forerunners of this Iraq mess.  

          Strategically, IMO, we'd be in a better place without the Clinton presidency and thats what its all about.  I'm not getting paid anything by the Democratic Party.

          by Lois on Sun Dec 28, 2003 at 08:56:05 PM PDT

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        •  Re: Dean: Dems Doomed if He Loses Nomination (none / 0)

          While I certainly don't agree with Lois view of not voting for a Dem if Dean isn't the nominee, she has a point when it comes to Clinton's Presidency.  We are still suffering the ramificatins of Clinton's triangulation and Dick Morris infused political hard-ball against fellow Democrats.  

          ... now watch this drive.

          by jg on Sun Dec 28, 2003 at 09:27:26 PM PDT

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        •  Re: Dean: Dems Doomed if He Loses Nomination (none / 0)

          "For gods sake I'm so sick of the whining and crying about the Clintons."

            I agree, and I would add, for gods sake I'm so sick of the whining and crying about Dean.  IMHO this diary entry is just another attempt to smear Dean under the guise of some greater issue, in this case, party unity.

          Freedom is what you do with what's been done to you. Jean-Paul Sartre

          by Stevo on Sun Dec 28, 2003 at 09:33:13 PM PDT

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    •  Re: Dean: Dems Doomed if He Loses Nomination (4.00 / 2)

      Many of the Dean supporters will stay home in Novemeber if Dean does not win.

      -fair point, and many supporters of other Dem candidates may stay home if Dean does get the nom.

      by jdavidson on Sun Dec 28, 2003 at 09:03:15 PM PDT

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      •  Re: Dean: Dems Doomed if He Loses Nomination (3.60 / 5)

        I don't agree.  I think most Dean supporters are ABB and would vote.  The 75-25 split quoted uptopic, sounds good.

        But I also think most Dean supporters would probably not be manning tables.  Wouldn't be going door to door.  Wouldn't be sending in their $10 and $20.  This is not because they'd be being peevish.  It's because it would all depend on whether or not other candidates could inspire them in the way that Dean had.

        Although anyone could try.  And someone might succeed.

        This race is all about respect.  It's about changing the relationship between campaigners and their constituents.  

        Bush will not be defeated unless the candidate who's going up against him can marshal 100 times the effort and dedication that Howard Dean is marshalling among his supporters now.  This is nothing, what's going on now.  This is a walk in the park compared to facing the GOP.  Sheer numbers alone cannot change the country's course.  Neither can money.   The equation is very simple -- the frontrunner, whoever it is, has to make his supporters give 2000 percent.

        A candidate who cannot inspire Dean's supporters to give 2000 percent in the general election, will not win.  Because even Dean has to inspire his supporters to give 2000 percent.  No one gets a free ride.

        by NYCO on Sun Dec 28, 2003 at 09:12:31 PM PDT

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      •  Re: Dean: Dems Doomed if He Loses Nomination (none / 1)

        Sore losers of any stripe should not inflict Bush on the rest of us.

        With FISA like these, who needs enemies?

        by chase on Sun Dec 28, 2003 at 09:44:37 PM PDT

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