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  •  Also.. you forget.. (none / 0)

    Bush didn't sell the war, though, as a way to defeat radical Islam by transforming the Arab world - he sold it on the threat of Saddam Hussein's weapons of mass destruction.  

    There was a fundamental betrayal of trust with both the world community and the American people right there, at the outset of this 'crusade.'  That is very, very serious and cannot be repaired easily or quickly, and certainly undermines any grand plan Bush and the neocons might have had as far as changing the region.  Who will believe them now, when they deceived us all from Day 1?  It does make Bush unfit to lead this nation.  Kerry was right in that you do not change the rationale for a war after the fact.  Had Bush successfully sold the war on the premises you give, it would be a different story.

    on strike.

    by daria g on Mon Oct 11, 2004 at 01:57:47 AM PDT

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    •  Yes (none / 0)

      But I think the larger problem is with the world community, not the American people. Bush may end up winning this election and not paying a heavy (electoral) price.

      However, the damage the US has done to its ability to operate effectively on the world stage is very large. Very large. The US has virtually no credibility, even in countries like Britain. Their ability to use military force has been severely circumscribed by Iraq.

      Ben P

      -3.25, -3.85

      by Ben P on Mon Oct 11, 2004 at 02:00:38 AM PDT

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    •  That's definitely true, or at least he didn't (none / 0)

      offer the promise of establishing a democracy in the heart of the Arab world as the primary reason for invading Iraq. And you can be certain that if he had done so, congress and the American people would've balked. If he is reelected, and is able to turn Iraq around, and onto the path of liberal democracy, a majority of Americans will forgive him for his deceptions. But if the Iraq war fails you can be sure that the deceptions on which it was based will be the least of our worries. You can expect instability to spread throughout the region, and elsewhere, possibly even here at home, with the culture war potentially metastasizing into something worse.

      "I hate to advocate drugs, alcohol, violence, or insanity to anyone, but they've always worked for me." Hunter S Thompson

      by spot on Mon Oct 11, 2004 at 02:22:03 AM PDT

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    •  My point is that what is happening in Iraq (none / 0)

      does very much have the potential of destablizing other gulf states, particularly if the situation on the ground worsens. If the House of Saud were to fall, and oil supplies from the region were severely curtailed, or interrupted, huge swaths of America are a week away from being plunged into the nineteenth century. In a country as politically divided as ours, this could be a very, very bad thing.

      "I hate to advocate drugs, alcohol, violence, or insanity to anyone, but they've always worked for me." Hunter S Thompson

      by spot on Mon Oct 11, 2004 at 02:28:30 AM PDT

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      •  Yes, it does (none / 0)

        The flagrant disregard the neocons seem to have for this very possibility just blows my mind.  I won't be sorry to see the House of Saud go, mind you, but not if the alternative is chaos.  Actually, on second thought, a little inspiration some of them have taken from the nutty Italian Futurists leads me to suspect they welcome chaos as a sort of cleansing force that eventually makes the world a better place.  I really wish these guys had taken to doing bad performance art instead of testing their grand aesthetic theories while using the Middle East as a stage.

        More of this and I'ma start stocking up on canned goods and bottled water.  Also, off topic but I have a feeling huge swaths of America are about to find themselves in deep financial trouble when they try to pay for heating oil this winter.  

        on strike.

        by daria g on Mon Oct 11, 2004 at 02:35:05 AM PDT

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        •  Meow. (none / 0)

          "The flagrant disregard the neocons seem to have for this very possibility just blows my mind."

          But Americans are generally very pragmatic. If the story ends well, it just won't matter very much to them that it began under false pretenses. Sad but true. With few exceptions, Americans just don't like to obsess about the past.

          "Actually, on second thought, a little inspiration some of them have taken from the nutty Italian Futurists leads me to suspect they welcome chaos as a sort of cleansing force that eventually makes the world a better place."

          Oh no, you're right. They're all about "creative destruction."

          "More of this and I'ma start stocking up on canned goods and bottled water."

          I've always wanted to live in an igloo. If global warming hasn't melted everything maybe I'll get my chance.

          "Also, off topic but I have a feeling huge swaths of America are about to find themselves in deep financial trouble when they try to pay for heating oil this winter."

          Financial trouble this winter and beyond, and not just because of oil prices. The housing market is poised to collapse across the western world in the next couple of years, equities are overinflated (again), and America is at some point (probably sooner than later) going to face a serious debt and currency crisis. Things are going to get much worse before they get better.    

          "I hate to advocate drugs, alcohol, violence, or insanity to anyone, but they've always worked for me." Hunter S Thompson

          by spot on Mon Oct 11, 2004 at 02:57:06 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

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