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  •  At what point (none / 0)

    Does this reach critical mass?  The supposed "line of support" for the American public was 1,000 casualties, a number we passed long ago.  Iraq shows no signs of getting better, the internal security forces are overwhelmed, and there isn't a decent end in sight.  At what point does Red America decide that the price isn't worth paying?

    Just another 2L in the court of life...

    by BrodyV on Tue Nov 09, 2004 at 09:46:23 AM PDT

    •  Red America doesn't really... (none / 1)

      care.  Just so long as they are told that we are "kicking ass" they will be happy... that is until a family member or friend is killed, then its a toss up as to whether they flip to the "reality based community" or retrench in their faith based hole.

      Unfortunately this is an exceptionally costly way of changing the hearts and minds of Americans...

       

      "Publicity is justly commended as a remedy for social and industrial diseases. Sunlight is said to be the best of disinfectants" Justice Louis Brandeis

      by mlangner on Tue Nov 09, 2004 at 09:49:49 AM PDT

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    •  probably never (4.00 / 2)

      i'd be curious to see what percentage of troops are from "red america" and what percentage of those troops comprise the 1000+ deaths (and even more casualties) that have occurred thus far.

      if it's a rather small amount, i'd wager to say that they'll just keep on not caring b/c obviously they are more concerned about two men being married then people dying for an unjust war.

      if it's a large amount, well, you've got me then. i think it just further shows the divide on what's important to people. i'd also wager that the general public being misinformed (ie: still thinking iraq has wmds, 9/11 ties, etc) plays a huge role in this b/c they think their sons/daughters are fighting the good fight.

      by jae on Tue Nov 09, 2004 at 09:52:44 AM PDT

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    •  During The Vietnam War (4.00 / 5)

      Hundreds of our soldiers were killed every week for about two years, and not many people seemed to care.  The anti-war movement was very vocal, but it claimed the allegiance of probably no more than a quarter of the public (and I'm probably being generous) by the end of 1967.  People didn't start to take notice until the Tet Offensive, by which time some 15,000 Americans were already dead.  And what really caught their attention at that point was the fact that the enemy, which we had been told for a good 18 or more months was on the verge of collapsing, had staged this audacious attack that was beaten back at a huge price in lives.

      So while I hate to come to the conclusion that people really don't care, they didn't seem to back then, and they don't seem to now.  As long as it's someone they don't know suffering the consequences, this war can go on forever as far as most of the public is concerned.

      "L'enfer, c'est les autres." - Jean Paul Sartre, Huis Clos

      "L'enfer, c'est le GOP!" - JJB, from an idea by oratorio

      by JJB on Tue Nov 09, 2004 at 10:08:39 AM PDT

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      •  It's going to take (4.00 / 2)

        the same thing it took during Vietnam - a realization and CONFESSION BY THE MEDIA that they were misled into supporting and defending the war, and that the Johnson and Nixon administrations were lying.  That didn't even end it, but it certainly gave the anti-war movement greater legitimacy and exposure.

        When "stupidity" suffices, why search for any other reason?

        by wozzle on Tue Nov 09, 2004 at 11:09:57 AM PDT

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      •  yes, but we have the national guards and reserves (none / 0)

        'Nam was all regular armed forces filled with draftees and careerists. here, we have the local people next door. This will get different as  they return home. Hopefully.

        by jackinthebox4 on Tue Nov 09, 2004 at 11:42:00 AM PDT

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        •  Those Draftees (none / 0)

          Were "the local people next door," fresh out of high school most of them, and unable to go to college for one reason or another.  And I'd wager they made up a far higher percentage of the men who saw combat than the Reserves and NGs currently do.

          "L'enfer, c'est les autres." - Jean Paul Sartre, Huis Clos

          "L'enfer, c'est le GOP!" - JJB, from an idea by oratorio

          by JJB on Tue Nov 09, 2004 at 11:51:15 AM PDT

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      •  We don't seem to be a country at war (none / 1)

        I live in Canada and frequently come down to the States for conferences and vacations.  The last two times this fall were in the Bay area and Virginia.  In neither case did it seem like people really believed they were at war.  Only the intellectuals do.  It is somewhere else, fought by people they don't personally know.  Sure, there are a lot of trucks with yellow ribbons on them, but the general sense is that we are not in conflict.  When you think of the financial costs bearing down on us, the disconnect is incredible.  I remember talking to a German farmer in Bavaria a quarter of a century ago, who told me that the War wasn't so bad -- they had goods and food right down to the end. Things went sour for his family only with the Occupation.

        The crunch will come next summer when the manpower starts to run out.  Even with higher signing bonuses, it is difficult to think that young people will deliberately sign up to be maimed.  The Guard reenlistments are falling off rapidly.  The moment of truth will come when they announce a selective draft.  Even this might not work, since the draft will not be general, but will instead pick out certain kinds of skills.  This keeps it under the radar.  We will be a long time in this war.

        Knut

        by Knut Wicksell on Tue Nov 09, 2004 at 12:43:24 PM PDT

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    •  1,000 US deaths? (none / 1)

      Hell, we just passed that many since "Mission Accomplished"!

      Prior to Commander Codpiece's stunt there were 138 US deaths in Iraq. I think we passed 1138 yesterday.

      "I was so easy to defeat, I was so easy to control, I didn't even know there was a war." -9.75, -8.41

      by RonV on Tue Nov 09, 2004 at 10:20:03 AM PDT

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    •  NEXT from the Committee on the Present Danger (none / 0)

      Clear and Present Danger
      The hawks relaunch a Cold-War relic.

      By Jaideep Singh
      Committee on the Present Danger . . review in Washington Monthly

      http://www.washingtonmonthly.com/features/2004/0411.singh.html

      "Norman Podhoretz of the neocon flagship journal 'Commentary' and still-vigorous, who comes to the podium to wonder out loud why everyone is so riled up and surprised about the casualties and the cost of the 'battle' of Iraq, of which most of the committee's members have been inveterate supporters. It 'drives me nuts', he tells the audience, when he hears people complaining about the financial burden of the war or the steady drip of casualties."

      TURN RED AMERICA BLUE FOR CHRIST's SAKE

      NEW DIARY - PROPAG - GOPUSA in Texas & UA Richard Powell Investigated

      by creve coeur on Tue Nov 09, 2004 at 10:40:37 AM PDT

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    •  They don't know what to think. (none / 1)

      A hard-core Red Stater here at work is quite perplexed about all this.  He admits that he is all for this war, but he's at a loss to explain why it's not going our way.  Alas, he feels that we are pursuing the only viable course of action in Iraq, so, at least as far as he's concerned, what we're seing now is as good as it gets.

      Shorter Red State position: we have to maintain the status quo and damn the costs.

      veritas vos liberabit

      by WWGray on Tue Nov 09, 2004 at 11:47:31 AM PDT

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