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  •  I think its real (4.00 / 2)

    Have you read "Globalization and its Discontents"?

    Out of the night that covers me, Black as the Pit from pole to pole, I thank whatever gods may be For my unconquerable soul.

    by Descrates on Sat Dec 25, 2004 at 10:07:20 PM PDT

    •  Nope (none / 0)

      But what do you think is real?  The Argentine economic performance? Of course it's real. I don't think anyone is saying otherwise.

      Everybody dies alone.

      by Armando on Sat Dec 25, 2004 at 10:09:18 PM PDT

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      •  Sorry. that's not what I meant (none / 0)

        I mean I think the naysayers are wrong.  

        Out of the night that covers me, Black as the Pit from pole to pole, I thank whatever gods may be For my unconquerable soul.

        by Descrates on Sat Dec 25, 2004 at 10:48:01 PM PDT

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        •  Time will tell n/t (none / 0)

          Everybody dies alone.

          by Armando on Sat Dec 25, 2004 at 10:50:07 PM PDT

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          •  Time has told (4.00 / 12)

            Benjamin Franklin said that the real cause of the American Revolution was the British passing the Currency Act of 1764. This outlawed the paper money the colonists had started using, Colonial Script. Colonial Script was fiat money in that it had no backing like gold or silver. But its use created a booming economy that was completely depressed by the new Currency Act. Franklin said that in one year, a depression set in that filled the streets with unemployed.

            What the Currency Act actually did was force the colonies onto a gold standard which immediatly sucked the money supply back to the Bank of England.

            The Bank of England was the first centralized bank. Economic hardship, inflation, and inequitible distribution of wealth has followed centralized banks wherever they are allowed to exist. The World Bank is the final implementation of that process.

            In the context of Argentina, it is inaccurate to just lump the IMF=World Bank with "free trade". In fact, while many IMF policies are pro free trade, many of their policies have nothing to do with trade. At least not in the conventional sense.

            Greg Palast, who many don't know was a member of the little elitist group of students who were allowed to study under Milton Friedman at the U. Chicago in the late 60s, has done a great job of accumulating the cold, hard facts about the effects of IMF/World Bank loans and their consequent requirements on developing countries.

            The record is clear: get money from IMFWB and follow their little four step plan to prosperity and watch you country implode.

            Reduced spending is really lower wages and contraction of the money supply. Foreign investment is really the privatization of utilities like Water!!! only to be sold to monster transnats like Enron.

            And then there's the really good one, Step 3, something like civil control. This is where they bring in the army to stand down the inevitable riots that follow such prosperity like water rates going up somewhere around 1000%. Peasants die of dehydration while transnats reek profits and pepsi uses up all the fresh water for 50 square miles. Desease spreads from people drinking free water.

            The whole process results in international banks owning these countries and their most prized assets like damns, power stations and national banks (not to mention presidents, sound familiar? Check W's top contributors). Exactly what our centralized, privately owned bank, the Federal Reserve, did to us in the late 20s and 30s. Contract the money supply, foreclose on the bankrupters and own the entire country.

            People talk about the some 40 billion 1930 dollars being lost during the Depression. It wasn't lost. It was transfered to banks. Through foreclosures.

            Did you know if you pull a dollar out of your wallet on the top it reads, 'Federal Reserve Note'. That seems normal till you know that the Federal Reserve is a privately owned corporation. Our national currency is issued by a private corporation, the Federal Reserve Bank.

            All this doesn't make the news much here in the US. Surprise. But the evidence, just like in Argentina and Venezuela, is that if you don't want your country to fall into economic slavery to giant transnational corporations and foreign banks, stay the fuck away from the IMFWB. This is why many up and coming countries, like India, are telling the IMFWB to piss off.

            Now, much of what I've just discussed has very little to do with tariffs. Or the usual shit we talk about free trade. But it's all entangled under the term globalization. But opponents of glabalization often miss one of, if not its most, evil components: international banks.

            Andrew Jackson's successful killing of the centralized bank is one of the most relevant in US history. Ever heard of it? Surprise.

            Ever wonder why the dollar continues to buy less and less. It's been happening so long we see it as a force of nature. It's not. It's the result of a continuing descent into abysmal indebtedness to the bank. Not just our national dept. Consumer dept, family dept, business dept.

            The banks have slowly gained ownership over our entire country. How much? Subtract American's meager equity from everything we think we own, property, cars, student loans, businesses, and what's left is owned by banks. I havewn't seen those figures, but I would guess it exceeds 90%. Its not a study you see floating around much. Surprise.

            It wasn't always this way. And it doesn't have to be this way forever. Banks planted their tentacles into our currency and economy through corruption and subversion. The Federal Reserve Act of 1913 was passed on Christmas Eve by three senators. Everyone else was home for the holiday.

            Since we still resemble a democracy, the banks here are heavily regulated robber barons. In Bolivia they are not. Nor in Brazil. Argentina is only defying economic expectation to those who either don't know about the effects of IMFWB's failed policies, or those who have a vested interest in those failed policies.

            Failed policies like our current trade policies (sm).

            PS I have no idea what (sm) stands for.

            Cheers.

            •  Uh, I forgot oil wells (4.00 / 2)

              results in international banks owning these countries and their most prized assets like damns

              And oil wells.

            •  (sm) (none / 0)

              possibly Service mark

              "...what Washington means by bipartisanship is mainly that everyone should come together to give conservatives what they want." --- Paul Krugman

              by puppet10 on Sun Dec 26, 2004 at 05:25:12 AM PDT

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            •  about the Currency Act (4.00 / 2)

              you can find some info here or simply google "Currency Act} along with 1764 and you will get a variety of interesting references.

              Since I am teaching American History [this year only - we are changing our sequence of courses] I thought I would do my usual and check the textbooks [NOTE-  I am teaching 2nd half, so I had not examined the books for this previously].

              The book used for lower ability students at least mentions Grenville and the Sugar Tax of 1764.  It does not mention the Currency Act of 1764.   The book for the higher level students does mention the Currency Act,  but let's look at the description it gives:

              "This act banned the use of paper money in the colonies because it tended to lose its value very quickly. Colonial farmers and artisans and artisans liked paper money for precisely that reason.  They could take out loans and easily repay them later with paper money that was worth less than when they originally borrowed,"

              While the statement quoted is accurate as far as it goes, it is also such an incomplete statement as to give a totally distorted view of the effects.   There was insufficient species in the colonies for appropriate business development to begin with.  Much of what was available was not British, but was the coinage of other nations.  When this act was combined with the Sugar Tax and the Sugar Act, with an insistence that the tax be paid in British coinage for British sugar only, I believe it caused a major contraction of the economy.   Thus it was not just the working classes who were upset, but also the investing classes.  I believe that is made clear in the link I provided.

              BTW -- I agree with the post by TocqueDeville about the overinfluence of banks.   Howeve, I there is a point that should be added to his remarks.  The fact that states have bid for the credit card business of banks by raising or even removing the limits on interest, such as occurred in SD among other states, has led to an even greater shift of wealth to the banking class.  When this is combined with things like the savings and loan bailout, in which is really was not the depositers who were aided by the billions appropriated by the Congress but rather those banks in position to move in and scoop up depressed banks, this process was accelerated.

              That was not the only banking bailout, but we won't go there, shall we.   Nor  is it considered appropriate to talk about things like Silverado (one Neil Bush on the board of directors) to the tune of a billion dollars (compare that to Whitewater, which was the wedge used to start the investigations and attacks on Bill Clinton).

              By the way, if one wants to understand more about international economics,  certainly the book by Stiglitz is mandatory reading.  I would also suggest  the book by Amartya Sen, 1998 Nobel Laureate, entitled  Development and Freedom.   And of course, much of what Paul Krugman has written is also relevant.  A good selection of his viewpoints can be found in his book The Great Unraveling.

              do we still have a Republic and a Constitution if our elected officials will not stand up for them on our behalf?

              by teacherken on Sun Dec 26, 2004 at 05:32:51 AM PDT

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            •  Tocque (none / 0)

              Good post, but always offputting in some respect - yes I know all about Jackson's battles over a National Bank. And his battles with South Carolina over enforcement of a tariff. And a whole host of things that maybe YOU don't know about.

              Arrogance is fine - assumption of ignorance by the other person is not. You really need to cool that.  

              Everybody dies alone.

              by Armando on Sun Dec 26, 2004 at 12:51:17 PM PDT

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              •  I almost (none / 0)

                posted a line about knowing you knew about a lot of this stuff (if not all) and how I was posting to the whole group who may not know some of this stuff. Now I wish I had.

                The whole surprise thing was just being a smart ass.

                My apologies for giving you the impression I thought you were clueless.

              •  I read that line (none / 0)

                as a note to the 98%, including myself, who didn't know that.  I didn't see anything personal.  

                If we were in a town hall meeting, he would have taken the podium and addressed the town after you had finished.  The surprise was aimed at, and shared with, the people in the hall.

                •  I know (none / 0)

                  it was stupid of me.

                  Everybody dies alone.

                  by Armando on Mon Dec 27, 2004 at 08:22:20 AM PDT

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                  •  I don't think it was stupid Armando (none / 0)

                    I posted a reply to you and then proceeded to write a diary. You had every reason to think that I assumed you didn't know what I was tlking about. Why? Because I'm a lazy bastard.

                    As I was proofreading my post, I realized that I had strayed outside the reply zone into a monologue to an ubspecified reader. And I was just too tired, or lazy to add a qualifier.

                    So not to turn this into a apology contest, but you were absolutely right in my opinion.

                  •  Oh yeah (none / 0)

                    And the "ever heard of it? Surprise." bit was actually a commentary on how the MSM and even history books often whitewash the the real American history. I went most of my adult life never knowing of the alleged plot to overthrow FDR's government by a bunch of robber barons and bankers. Or how the Fed is really private.
        •  It's a good book (3.66 / 3)

          Its by Joseph Stiglitz.  He won the Nobel Prize in Economics in 2001, I believe.  He did work in developemental economics focusing on information or the lack thereof's effect on the economy.  I didn't read that.  But I read his book on Globalization and found it fascinating.  He was the World Bank economist during the Asian currency crisis and spends most of the book discussing it.  Its kind of the anti-Lexus and the Tea Tree.

          Out of the night that covers me, Black as the Pit from pole to pole, I thank whatever gods may be For my unconquerable soul.

          by Descrates on Sat Dec 25, 2004 at 10:56:13 PM PDT

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          •  Yes, (none / 1)

            This is a must read.
          •  He Totally Exposed the IMF (none / 0)

            Stiglitz's book is a devastating critique as to how the IMF lost sight of its original mission as it got overrun during the Reagan/Thatcher era by those who "champion market supremacy with ideological fervor" (his words).  

            But after reading this article, I wouldn't say Argentina is out of the woods yet.  The last passage was somewhat ominous: "the turnabout here has inspired such a sense of confidence that the government is not only talking about cutting its last ties to the I.M.F. but also insisting that any payback to bondholders be linked to Argentina's continued good economic health."

            I don't think the credit markets are going to like that attitude too much.

            "when i cruise the information superhighway, i CTRL-BREAK for hallucinations."

            by emobile on Sun Dec 26, 2004 at 08:58:36 AM PDT

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          •  Faith Based Big Boys (4.00 / 2)

            Before he the won the Nobel Prize, the World Bank fired Stiglitz because he woke up and refused to drink the neo-liberal kool aid anymore.  Laugh all you want at the Bush Administration (they deserve it), but that constellation of international economics -- globalization and neoliberalism -- was the original faith-based community.  

            Like people in the Bush Administration, many (though not all) neo-liberal economists ridicule and snark at academics who conduct behaviorial research to test assumptions about how people act -- assumptioms that are the foundations of neo-liberalism.  Do people lose their incentive to work and invest if they can't pass all their accumulated wealth to their heirs?  You better not try to find out.

            This aggression will not stand, man.

            by kaleidescope on Sun Dec 26, 2004 at 10:53:52 AM PDT

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    •  Indeed... (none / 1)

      So far, they've been doing alright.  We'll see how things go.

      But eventually, they're going to need foreign capital back into their country, and that'll be a whole 'nother hurdle for them to jump.

      I find the Argentina situation to be incredibly interesting.

      I think, however, it challenges the following things:

      1.  The wisdom of current IMF conditionality agreements

      2.  Where a govenment's priorities should lie in the aftermath of a financial crisis

      I don't think it challenges the following things:

      1.  The overall wisdom of globalization and moving towards liberalizing the financial account of a nation.

      2.  That free trade should be the ultimate goal -- with protectionism as a temporary measure to grow industries domestically, rather than a "fair trade" regime.

      3.  That responsibility for maintanance of a standard of living relies not on corporate charity (fair trade), but on a government.
      •  it challenges the wisdom of IMF policies? (4.00 / 6)

        I think IMF policies accomplish exactly what they're intended to: keeping the third world in its place. If they were actually trying to give a hand up, they could have figured out long ago that their policies weren't doing that.

        We'll never have real "free trade" because that would involve the unfettered flow of people, as well as capital, across borders. We have a system that affords money more rights than people; it's immoral and can only be sustained by violence and oppression. Fortunately, our fearless leaders have those in abundance.

        I expect the destabilization of Argentina to manifest before too long. Like Cuba and Venezuela, it sets a bad example.

        •  Economic Base Meet the Superstructure (none / 1)

          There is no such thing as free trade, only a series of government imposed restraints on free trade -- restraints that favor one group of economic actors over another.

          Nothing is more sacred to "free traders" than property and contract, but both property and (government enforced) contract restrain free trade.  Real "free trade" means anybody can sell anything anytime to anybody for anything they can get.  I like "your" toaster; I think I'll sell it to Jake.

          So-called "free trade agreements" invariably contain clauses that protect intellectual property and investment.  Why shouldn't Chinese mom and pop companies be able to copy Microsoft software and sell it for less?  Isn't that free trade?

          So-called "free trade agreements" also outlaw certain kinds of government subsidies -- like tax preferences for exports, but encourage other kinds of subsidies -- like allowing polluters to externalize the costs of their pollution or to have governments look the other way as companies (or the governments themselves) organize death squads to kill labor organizers.

          "Free trade" as practiced today means strict requirements that governments enforce the intellectual property rights of Microsoft but no requirement that governments prosecute death squads that kill workers' leaders.

          "Free trade" as practiced is a great example of how you can frame an issue to make it look noble for one set (or, to use and unfashionable term, class) of people to exploit another set of people.

          I think these guys learned that before George Lakoff was even born.

          This aggression will not stand, man.

          by kaleidescope on Sun Dec 26, 2004 at 11:23:33 AM PDT

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      •  Some questions (4.00 / 5)

        1. WHY do they "need to attract foreign investment"? Other than to fulfill the desires of economic evangelists?

        2. Why is "globalisation" a good thing? So far our "globalisation" experiments have lead to the empowerment of the most totalitarian regimes on earth, the destruction of labor throughout the world, with rewarding the most anti-human and anti-environmental governments.

        3. Why should free trade be the ultimate goal. Or even A goal. The ultimate goal of economic systems should be to serve those people living under them. Not to promote a new economic theology.

        Just questioning some of your more basic premises.

        I tremble for my country when I reflect that God is just; that his justice cannot sleep forever TJ

        by cdreid on Sun Dec 26, 2004 at 03:54:32 AM PDT

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        •  Because (none / 0)

          Why do they need to attract foreign investment? Just as you say, you only need investment if you want to grow the economy.

          Why is globalization a good thing? Thomas Barnett says that globalization is good because it connects a country with the rest of the world economy. His studies indicate that war is an issue in the non-integrated gap, but has almost disappeared in the connected, globalized economy. So, globalization reduces violence and leads to peace.

          Why should free trade be the ultimate goal? Because it leads to the greatest efficiency of production. In other words, it makes things cheap for the consumer. Of course, it also brings down labor rates. That's bad for producers.

          In the end, globalization and free trade are probably inevitable. What's not inevitable is how fast we get there. There's no reason why we in the U.S. have to export jobs as fast as we've been doing it.

          What's also not inevitable is that free trade has to be unfair. We can band together to set the rules for trade, even in a free market. It's difficult, but not undoable. A good first step would be to get corporate money out of the Democratic Party to the extent possible.

          •  I like that Hugo Chavez can defy Bush (none / 1)

            and the world bank and persue government programs to help the poor in his country.  That is what freetraders like Tom Friedman want to put an end to.  He wants to impose a peace based on free market fundyism. He really loses sleep when people like me get health insurance. He is a twat.

            Stop the war! Draft Bush voters!

            by NoAlternative on Sun Dec 26, 2004 at 06:22:35 PM PDT

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          •  Except that : (none / 0)

            Why is globalization a good thing? Thomas Barnett says that globalization is good because it connects a country with the rest of the world economy. His studies indicate that war is an issue in the non-integrated gap, but has almost disappeared in the connected, globalized economy. So, globalization reduces violence and leads to peace

            the facts seem to strongly disagree with that contention. In fact its pretty easy to argue just the opposite. The power barons of the world are quite happily funding,starting, or fighting wars around the world in order to keep populations as supplies of cheap labor, or to control a resource etc etc. Iraq, Indonesia, Africa...

            Why should free trade be the ultimate goal? Because it leads to the greatest efficiency of production. In other words, it makes things cheap for the consumer. Of course, it also brings down labor rates. That's bad for producers

            Free trade as we speak is enriching the largest and most repressive tyranny on earth as we speak. China. It is rewarding India and pakistan for the abuse of their people and massive population problems. It is punishing americans for being efficient, having labor and environmental standards , etc etc. The reality is quite a bit different than the theology.

            I agree with both of your final two paragraphs completely. But you're calling for Fair, not free, trade.

            I tremble for my country when I reflect that God is just; that his justice cannot sleep forever TJ

            by cdreid on Sun Dec 26, 2004 at 09:22:55 PM PDT

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      •  China is investing heavily in Latin America (none / 1)

        It is my understanding that China is investing heavily in Latin America and that other countries besides Argentina are taking control of their economies in some very profound ways..

        It is further my understanding that Argentinian workers took control of factories and that the propertied class joined them.  

        Bolivia ousted its president for attempting to allow water to be privatized in that country.  Venezuela with Hugo Chavez, now takes a larger royalty for their oil in order to provide hospitals and schools for the country's poor who turned out in record numbers for Chavez in the orchestrated recall saying they had waited for someone like Chavez for a long long time and were not giving him up.

    •  So tell me... (4.00 / 2)

      When has the Friedman economica of the IMF and World Bank ever worked?

      They keep doing the same thing, and result is speculative capital flows that gut the economy and destroy the middle classes, further impoverish the poor, and enrich international bankers.

      Give me one success story.

      Just one.

      It could be worse. I could still be living in Texas.

      by msaroff on Sun Dec 26, 2004 at 05:22:05 PM PDT

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