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  •  James (none)
    You must hate hanging around lesbians.  All they want to talk about is basketball.

    But seriously, gay men rarely like sports, although some have been pretty amazing athletes.

    Was it Mark Spitz?  Or someone else?

    In any case, you can do what my wife does, look at their buns.

    •  Greg Louganis, Billy Bean, (none)
      and a few others.

      Yes, the buns are nice. But hearing them say "fag" so many times isn't.

      •  Motivational gay bashing (none)
        My next door neighbor is gay and we hang out and drink cervezas all the time.

        I use the word "cocksucker" when I miss at darts.  And it makes him flinch.

        But the thing is, I like using the word "cocksucker" to describe people I don't respect and stuff that goes wrong.

        Why?  Because I would rather chew rocks than perform fellatio.

        Some examples:

        That Richard Perle is a goddamn cocksuker.

        or after watching Mariano Rivera lose Game 7 of the World Series?

        "Goddamn cocksucker!"

        As for the word "fag"....

        I would never call a gay man a fag.  But I would call me straight friend a fag if he was acting cowardly.

        "Don't be afraid to do another bong you fag...you'll find your way home."

        I don't plan on curtailing my language and I use it to convey a concise point.

        Men in sports are often pushing each other to perform better by questioning their manhood.  And this means questioning their competitiveness.  And that is a traditionally male trait.

        So calling someone a girl, a pantywaist, a pussy etc. makes a many men redouble their concentration and improve their efforts.

        The same is true of accusing them of acting like a girl by, for instance, performing sexual acts most commonly assocoated with women, like fellatio.

        This permeates all military training as well as athletics and is extremely effective.

        So, as a gay man, you should understand that seemingly bigoted language is often merely functional language.  It means no harm.

        •  eh (4.00)
          But you're:
          1. Equating femininity and male homosexuality.  Both inaccurate and conceivably offensive to both groups in the equation.
          2. Equating male homosexuality and cowardice.  I would hope that if you'd think about that, you could see why maybe just maybe gay men (and others) might think that was offensive.
          3. Suggesting that because you wouldn't want to do something, it's an insult to imply that anyone would do it.  Shall all the women take you up on this and quit sucking cock?  Would that make the world a better place?  If you don't think so, then don't imply that it's a demeaning thing to do.
          Also, all of these things are insider-outsider things.  If you are a member of a category/group or are at least among friends who understand your affection, appreciation, and closeness to the group being referred to, you can use certain words that you simply cannot use as an outsider, or cannot use as an outsider without being considered insulting.  This goes for terms referring to sexuality, race, and I'm sure other things as well.
          •  Gay bashing and my bad attitude (none)
            I am "Equating femininity and male homosexuality.  Both inaccurate and conceivably offensive to both groups in the equation."

            Gay men and hetero women perform several sex acts that hetero men never perform.  I am not equating these actions, but noting they are the same (thus in some sense, equal).  I don't think I cause offense because I place no value judgment on any of these acts.  

            I am "Equating male homosexuality and cowardice.  I would hope that if you'd think about that, you could see why maybe just maybe gay men (and others) might think that was offensive."

            Actually I am equating submissiveness with cowardice.  Being on the receiving end of intercourse or submitting to perform fellatio is submissive behavior.  From this flows the typical epithets for people that are not being assertive enough (pussy, woman, girlyman, fag).
            Of course, women can be submissive in bed and assertive in the board room or battlefield.  And so can gay men.  I just am too lazy to adjust myspeech patterns to be hypersensitive to what "might" give offense.

            I am "Suggesting that because you wouldn't want to do something, it's an insult to imply that anyone would do it.  Shall all the women take you up on this and quit sucking cock?  Would that make the world a better place?  If you don't think so, then don't imply that it's a demeaning thing to do."

            Good god no.  I don't care what makes people excited sexually, and I don't think people's personal sexual preferances are very indicative of how they act in other areas of their life.  I would call a hetero friend a fag if I wanted to challenge his courage.  I would call a gay friend a pussy.

            Until we create new words that have the same punch, I will use the ones available to me.

            "Also, all of these things are insider-outsider things.  If you are a member of a category/group or are at least among friends who understand your affection, appreciation, and closeness to the group being referred to, you can use certain words that you simply cannot use as an outsider, or cannot use as an outsider without being considered insulting.  This goes for terms referring to sexuality, race, and I'm sure other things as well."

            Exactly.  And my point is that just because a group of jocks go around calling each other fags doesn't mean they have anything against gays.

            So, James should be careful not to take offense when no offense is intended.

            •  I don't really think that you can understand (none)
              the feeling that a gay man who just wants to enjoy a sporting event or sports in general may experience when one player, to demonize another says, "I HATE THAT FAGGOT!!!!" or, "we all know he's a cocksucker anyway".

              I see that I won't be able to change your mind on this. You may want to try the Outsports website.

              •  Leather Skin (none)
                I can't understand what it is like to be insulted based on my sexual orientation.  I agree.

                But all I meant to convey is that the use of the adjectives "faggot" and "cocksucker" are usually meant only to buck up a teammate and get him to perform better.

                We all know when words are hurled in hate.  And we should be able to distinguish between good-natured ribbing and gay bashing.

                What I am recommending is to be proud of yourself and to assume that hearing the word "fag" bandied about has no application to you personally.  

                If you do everything you mother asks of you then you are a "fag" regardless of whether you like men or women.

                If you want to live in a world where homosexual behavior is not associated with submissive behavior, you will be waiting a long time.

                Please make an attempt to give people the benefit of the doubt.

                •  aoeu (none)
                  You've already lost the benefit of the doubt.

                  You can stand us up at the gates of hell
                  But we won't back down

                  by TealVeal on Thu May 13, 2004 at 10:14:56 PM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

                •  Do you truly think that is ok?? (none)
                  But all I meant to convey is that the use of the adjectives "faggot" and "cocksucker" are usually meant only to buck up a teammate and get him to perform better.
                  1. What a sad commentary on the profound pathology of our sports culture.
                  2. If you just tried the simple substitution test, you would understand both how absurd and how obscenely offensive your comment is.
                  Try substituting "nigger" for faggot and "nigger-lover" for "cocksucker" and read your statement again.

                  Now rinse and repeat, using "dirty jew" for "faggot" and "jew-lover" for "cocksucker".

                  Get the point yet?

                  Justifying this kind of hate as jocular jock jokes is just like justifying the torture in Iraw as frat hazing.

                  •  PC Police (none)
                    The effort to protect every person from insulting speech backfires every time.

                    Blacks call each other niggers.

                    Crossdressers call each other queens.

                    If I called a submissive person a "nigger" I would be making a value judgment that all african-americans are submissive.  That might have made sense 60 years ago, but it makes no snese today.

                    If I called a submissive person a "rotton Jew" I would be making a totally incoherent statement.

                    Sometimes people act passively, when they would be better served if they just asserted themselves.

                    We need words to describe people who are acting passsively or submissively when it is inappropriate.

                    Traditionally, we describe a man acting passively as acting like a woman, or like a homosexual.

                    The reason for this is that in normal sexual parlance, a woman or gay man is acting submissively or passively.  And when you apply this characteristic to a heterosexual man, you are questioning his assertiveness, his manliness, and his aggressiveness.

                    In settings that value these male traits extremely highly, like athletics and war, we use epithets to motivate people.

                    We can try to make all speech sensitive, but castrating speech is not a well thought out policy.

                    Over time, we will probably lose the colloquialisms that have currency today.

                    But it will be a long time before it ceases to be effective to question a man's heterosexuality when trying to get him to act assertivelyand aggressively.

                    And I have no animus towards gay people.  I just am unapologetic about calling a coward a "pussy" or a "fag".

                    Lighten up with your fascistic thought police tactics.

                    I want James to realize that many off hand comments are not meant to insult him.

                    •  aoeu (none)
                      Why can't you just call cowards cowards?  How fucking hard is it?  You go through these long convoluted attempts at justifying your behavior just so you don't have to act like a decent human being.  

                      Are you too scared to admit you were wrong?

                      You can stand us up at the gates of hell
                      But we won't back down

                      by TealVeal on Thu May 13, 2004 at 10:42:47 PM PDT

                      [ Parent ]

                      •  You are wrong (none)
                        Because coward is a description that has a limited meaning.

                        It mainly means "you are too afraid to do what you should do."

                        For instance, if you are playing basketball and your teammate is playing poor defense it makes little sense to call them a coward.

                        But if you say "you are playing like a pussy" it tends to focus the mind and get your teammate to refocus his efforts.

                        You want to me to take responsibility for creating a brand new politically correct vocabulary.  

                        I want James to have comfort that men use epithets to motivate each other without any necessary malice towards gays.

                        •  aoeu (none)
                          Spare me the rhetoric about "political correctness."  You're wrong, you know it, and you're just too much of a coward to admit it.

                          You can stand us up at the gates of hell
                          But we won't back down

                          by TealVeal on Thu May 13, 2004 at 11:04:09 PM PDT

                          [ Parent ]

                          •  Relax (none)
                            Listen carefully:

                            Donnie Rumsfeld is a fag for not resigning and George Bush is a pussy for not firing him.

                            If you think that same sentence packs the same punch if we substitute "coward" then you are just a $5 whore.

                            You want me to use "approved language".  What country are you living in.  Words are meant to communicate.

                            I won't agree that I have to clean up my speech to avoid offending anyone.

                          •  sure it has a different meaning (none)
                            But more so than you want.
                            1. It does convey how unfavorably you view them.
                            2. It also shows what an asshole you are.
                            There's more words out there.  Maybe you can find some to get #1 across while sparing yourself #2.  But it's up to you.  You can also talk yourself blue trying to convince me of your need to use fag.  Good luck.  
                          •  Are you just a PC Czar? Or worse? (none)
                            Ok but still need a word to tell my friend that he is acting like a little girl.

                            And I need a word to describe a man that is bending over and taking it in the ass.

                            Any suggestions?

                            Ooh ooh ah ah, I am such an a-hole...according to you, you friggin fascist.

                            You are exhibit A on why we have such a hard time getting over 45% of the vote.

                          •  lol (none)
                            You've made it so simple.

                            "And I need a word to describe a man that is bending over and taking it in the ass"

                            Um...that's a 'homosexual'.  Or a 'gay man'.  Or perhaps he's 'bi' or 'bicurious'.

                            Of course, if you'd like to communicate that you have a problem with it, you can choose "fag" or "cocksucker".  

                            But if you do that, I will then think you are an "asshole" or a "homophobic asshole."  

                          •  Words speak louder. (none)
                            Forget it. BooMan has been hoist by his own homophobic petard.

                            All protestations to the contrary, by their own words shall ye know them.

                          •  Typical (none)
                            I am not a homophobe.

                            A homophobe needs to have some animus against gay people.

                            I would not perform gay sexual acts because I have no desire to.

                            Other than a personal aversion to doing gay things myself, I have no further aversion.

                            But apparently, my insistence on using the word fag occasionally when it serves my purpose means that ipso facto I must hate gays.

                            Can't you see what a moron you are?

                            My whole point was that the word has useful meanings in certain contexts and that a gay person should not assume that anyone who uses it dislikes (overtly or otherwise) them or their lifestyle.

                            As for the word cocksucker, I never even associated with being gay until my gay neighbor "flinched" when I used it to curse my poor effort at tossing darts.

                            I associated it with a word to describe "goddamn it" in alternative words.

                            Clearly, I can't be accused of being secretly anti-gay because I use the word without thinking about "what it means".  It meant only what I intended it to mean.

                            And that is the whole point.

                            Meaning is meaning and words are words.

                            If I tell my black friend that he is "one good looking nigger", it doesn't mean that I am insensitive or secretly racist.

                            It means, "Damn mofo, yo sho nuff looks good."

                            Now to wrap it up, I will describe what I heard said about you by my black friend:

                            "Naw, someone said jo butt stank"

                          •  Better words (none)
                            Scumsfeld is a bastard for not resigning and Bush is an asshole for not firing him.

                            Same punch...

                            "If this be treason, make the most of it." -- Patrick Henry

                            Prune the Shrub!

                            by Cali Scribe on Fri May 14, 2004 at 09:16:51 AM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  Punch? (none)
                            yes it has punch but a different meaning.

                            My meaning suggests that they don't have the balls to do the right thing, and yours suggest that that they have so much balls that they don't have to do the right thing.

                            I want to say what I mean.

                          •  Okay, try this one (none)
                            Scumsfeld is an arrogant bastard for not resigning, and Bush is a eunuch for not firing him.

                            Meaning, I think Scumsfeld really believes he doesn't have to do the right thing, and Bush is definitely a eunuch (informal definition: An ineffectual, powerless, or unmasculine man).

                            And that gives you your alternative word right there: eunuch. Just a matter of stretching the brain cells. Granted, it doesn't have the pejorative power of "pussy" or "fag", but give it time...

                            "If this be treason, make the most of it." -- Patrick Henry

                            Prune the Shrub!

                            by Cali Scribe on Fri May 14, 2004 at 10:26:58 AM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  You bigot (none)
                            You are totally prejudiced against eunuchs.  Can you imagine how they feel when you use their name as a perjorative?

                            My god, you eunuchophobe, you make me sick.

                •  This thread turned into such a mess, but (none)
                  I guess I see what you are trying to say. I do think that you should try to realize that people who hate hearing the word "fag" are not "fascist thought police". I don't even really support hate crimes laws because I feel that their good intentions quickly splinter into "who has suffered more". I don't go around demanding that people not say faggot. I hope that over time they will realize the damage they cause by using that term in such a hostile and vicious manner. But I would hope that if you have any gay friends, you sit down with them and ask them what they feel in the pit of their stomach when they hear someone yelling "FAGGOT!!!" "COCKSUCKER!!!!" "FUDGEPACKER!!!!" You hear that over and over and over and eventually those words make you hate yourself so much and they make you so afraid of anyone, anything.

                  Here's a question for you:

                  Would you ever call a black man "n***" to get a reaction out of him? If he were upset, what would you say to him?

            •  do you have a girlfriend? (none)
              what's her name and address?  I want to let her know that when she goes down on you, her reward is your disrespect.

              Seriously, though (yes, that was a joke, sort of), I actually once read a pretty convincing argument (made, I think, by Pat Califia, who knows whereof she speaks when it comes to dominance) that performing oral sex is actually an activity totally suited to sexual dominance.  That the person receiving it is just kind of sitting back doing nothing, while the person performing it is actually the one in control.  For some explanation of the work involved, you could watch that Sex & the City episode where Samantha explains it.  I think it was the one about "funky spunk."

              But mostly just think about what you're saying and what people assume you mean.  Because while, for the moment at least, I'm willing to take you at your word about your intentions in saying these things, it's not just your gay friend who might misinterpret you.  Your seriously homophobic friend might misinterpret you and think that your choice of words was further support of his views, views that you might not endorse, might even recoil from in horror.  And so on.  Your words are not so transparent that everyone knows your mind from them.  If the most likely ways they'll be misinterpreted are harmful, maybe it's better to choose different words?

              •  put the Student Handbook in your Butt.. (none)
                Yes, the thing is that a woman is never more powerful than when she is in a position to cut of your johnson.

                This applies whether she is deep-throating you or wielding a kitchen knife.

                So there is definitely a power involved on the part of the fellator.

                And many women (thank God) get a real kick out of this power.

                I don't want to go to deeply into this.  It is fairly simple.  Men call other men "women" and "fag" when they mean they are acting in a cowardly fashion.

                It is boring to call a person a coward or yellow-belly every time.

                It doesn't necessarily mean anything homophobic of misongynitic.  SO you shouldn't ruch to take offense.

                And just because I admit using these words and don't plan on changing doesn't mean I am solely responsible for perpetuating a horrible stereotype.

                I have a girl friend who is a mother of two and absolutely no maternal instinct.  I could call her a "man" and insult her.  In fact I have.

                And she agrees.

                I am yellow dog democrat, but I won't take crap from people that want to control my speech, and are more focused on "words" than "meaning."

                •  meaning (none)
                  You might then be familiar with one of the connotive meanings of the term "overcompensation."
                  •  Don't be as ass (none)
                    You know, I meant to make ONE POINT.

                    The point was that people use two words "faggot" and "cocksucker" all the time, and they DON'T mean it to be interpreted as a dislike of gays, or even of women that perform fellatio.

                    They mean it convey that someone is acting like a "pussy" or an "asshole".

                    Sometimes people act like "Dicks" "cocks" or "pricks".

                    You for example.

                    So, just because I admit to using two words and just because I insist I mean no harm by it...does not mean that I am a latent homosexual or that I have a poor endowment.

                    Your rush to paint with that brush is foolish.

                    Thus my hostility.

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