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  •  It's not objective (none / 0)

    F911 is at least as subjective as the mainstream media, probably more so.

    Merriam-Webster Dictionary even added a new term to account for the todays media:

    New Journalism
    : journalism that features the author's subjective responses to people and events and that often includes fictional elements meant to illuminate and dramatize those responses

    Sounds similar to F911.  Neither can be called objective.

    •  So what? (4.00 / 3)

      It's not objective

      A documentary is not, by definition, objective.  It merely 'documents' something, all through the filter of the person making it.

      •  Exactly (none / 0)

        like the media doesn't show the "American" point of view.

        McCain: Less jobs, more war.

        by Unstable Isotope on Sun Jul 18, 2004 at 04:40:39 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

      •  Yes, but (none / 0)

        That depends on which definition you use.

        For example, Dictionary.com defines documentary as:
           1. Consisting of, concerning, or based on documents.
           2. Presenting facts objectively without editorializing or inserting fictional matter, as in a book or film.

        But I don't think it really matters.  Our language hasn't kept up with nuance.  Not to sound flip-floppish, but I agree that it is a documentary, but only in as much as today's media is journalism.  

        But the original point here is that if Liberals continue to admit that Moore is loose with the facts they are allowing Repubs to frame the debate in terms that keeps us on the defensive and where we ultimately can't win.  Of course Moore is loose with the facts, so is Fox.  

        •  2 kinds ... (none / 1)

          I think there are two main types of documentaries.
          1.  Those that present the facts in an objective way, without passing judgement (the objective lens type of documentary), and allowing the viewer to make up their own minds and come to their own conclusions.
          2.  Those that presnt an opinion and back it up by facts, in a similar fashion that a prosecuter would present a case to a jury.  This alows let the viewer decide for themselves if they agree or disagree with the point of view of the creator.
          Moore obviously released a documentary of the 2nd type.  I don't think this second type is deceitful or dishonest.  It's not as if he's making things up.  He just presents things in a way that supports his premise. There may be some sensationalism, but then again who doesn't to a certain extent. It's not enough to make him lose credebility to someone who is unbiased going into the movie.

          I know Bush wanted to run the country like a business, but I never expected it would be a dot com.

          by avagias on Sun Jul 18, 2004 at 09:07:25 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

    •  New Journalism not so new (none / 1)

      this might be a nitpick, but the OED offers this for "New Journalism"

      n. New Journalism (freq. with the), a style of journalism that developed in the U.S. during the 1960s, characterized by the use of subjective and fictional elements; also used earlier in a more general sense.

      New Journalism came about with Tom Wolfe and Joan Didion, then got launched into some kind of stratosphere with Hunter S. Thompson. There's a great quote in Fear and Loathing on the Campaign Trail about objectivity in journalism, suggesting, as any student of literature would guess, that it simply cannot exist.

      Anyway, there's a stub in Wikipedia, too.

      Moore's slipshod relation to the facts gives him a credibility problem. People who frequent dKos already understand that there's an equal/greater credibility problem with the SCLM, but if someone does not see that, then when the SCLM talks about Moore's credibility problem, you end up with half the story and hate the wrong person.

      I think Franken takes this up in Lies: he suggests that his book was thoroughly fact-checked--in comparison to, say, Coulter's work. Part of this was, from my understanding, because Franken understood that, when held to a higher standard like the left is, he has to hit everything square. Coulter can suffer the accusations of bad facts--the SCLM will let her slide. But Franken knows that he has no similar friends in there. Hence, he has to make sure it's all dead on.

      This all said, Fahrenheit 9/11 was pleasant largely because Moore managed to present everything so straight--though I still could have handled less snark (starting the flick with a dud of a joke about who makes up Moore's dreamscape, for example, annoyed me). Maybe I just don't like jokes.

      •  A higher standard (none / 0)

        It's quite a predicament we're in, being at a disadvantage for having a higher standard.  It makes me think the Repubs withhold from funding education in order to maintain the advantage.

        The notion that journalism is inherently not objective is interesting.  Perhaps we should aim for polarity in the media rather than waiting for them to be more objective.  I'm certain a liberal leaning establishment, drawing from a larger base of creative talent, could compete with Fox and do quite well.  Air America is off to a good start, it would be nice to have something on TV -- we certainly have a lot of catching up to do.

        •  re:liberal leaning establishment (4.00 / 2)

          I'm certain a liberal leaning establishment, drawing from a larger base of creative talent, could compete with Fox and do quite well.  Air America is off to a good start, it would be nice to have something on TV

          hmm. how about a cable news channel that's basically the daily show 24/7?  laugh 'em out of town! the slant could be something like completely subjective newsertainment... but at least we're honest about it!  apparently lots of people - especially younger viewers - get all their news from satire sources like TDS, so there could be a big market for it.  and having a sense of humor about it is probably the only way liberals could work for something obviously biased like an anti-fox.

          we're rolling back the republican crime wave

          by zeke L on Sun Jul 18, 2004 at 08:14:22 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

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