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  •  Facts are meaningless now (3.50 / 2)

    ...respect his approach and love watching his films even when he gets a tad reckless in interpreting some of the facts.

    I think statements like this, regardless of intent, are a fallacy and only perpetuate the idea that Moore is obliged to be objective.  His movies, especially F911, are satire.  

    I would argue that his movie is not actually a documentary, but considering the Fox labels themselves as objective journalists... fair play is no longer part of the rules.  Repubs have redifined half the dictionary however it suits them, so long as we continue to play fair, we'll lose.

    •  Not mutually exclusive (none / 1)

      I would argue that his movie is not actually a documentary

      I would argue it is a documentary (the Academy would agree), as well as satire.

      •  It's not objective (none / 0)

        F911 is at least as subjective as the mainstream media, probably more so.

        Merriam-Webster Dictionary even added a new term to account for the todays media:

        New Journalism
        : journalism that features the author's subjective responses to people and events and that often includes fictional elements meant to illuminate and dramatize those responses

        Sounds similar to F911.  Neither can be called objective.

        •  So what? (4.00 / 3)

          It's not objective

          A documentary is not, by definition, objective.  It merely 'documents' something, all through the filter of the person making it.

          •  Exactly (none / 0)

            like the media doesn't show the "American" point of view.

            McCain: Less jobs, more war.

            by Unstable Isotope on Sun Jul 18, 2004 at 04:40:39 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

          •  Yes, but (none / 0)

            That depends on which definition you use.

            For example, Dictionary.com defines documentary as:
               1. Consisting of, concerning, or based on documents.
               2. Presenting facts objectively without editorializing or inserting fictional matter, as in a book or film.

            But I don't think it really matters.  Our language hasn't kept up with nuance.  Not to sound flip-floppish, but I agree that it is a documentary, but only in as much as today's media is journalism.  

            But the original point here is that if Liberals continue to admit that Moore is loose with the facts they are allowing Repubs to frame the debate in terms that keeps us on the defensive and where we ultimately can't win.  Of course Moore is loose with the facts, so is Fox.  

            •  2 kinds ... (none / 1)

              I think there are two main types of documentaries.
              1.  Those that present the facts in an objective way, without passing judgement (the objective lens type of documentary), and allowing the viewer to make up their own minds and come to their own conclusions.
              2.  Those that presnt an opinion and back it up by facts, in a similar fashion that a prosecuter would present a case to a jury.  This alows let the viewer decide for themselves if they agree or disagree with the point of view of the creator.
              Moore obviously released a documentary of the 2nd type.  I don't think this second type is deceitful or dishonest.  It's not as if he's making things up.  He just presents things in a way that supports his premise. There may be some sensationalism, but then again who doesn't to a certain extent. It's not enough to make him lose credebility to someone who is unbiased going into the movie.

              I know Bush wanted to run the country like a business, but I never expected it would be a dot com.

              by avagias on Sun Jul 18, 2004 at 09:07:25 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

        •  New Journalism not so new (none / 1)

          this might be a nitpick, but the OED offers this for "New Journalism"

          n. New Journalism (freq. with the), a style of journalism that developed in the U.S. during the 1960s, characterized by the use of subjective and fictional elements; also used earlier in a more general sense.

          New Journalism came about with Tom Wolfe and Joan Didion, then got launched into some kind of stratosphere with Hunter S. Thompson. There's a great quote in Fear and Loathing on the Campaign Trail about objectivity in journalism, suggesting, as any student of literature would guess, that it simply cannot exist.

          Anyway, there's a stub in Wikipedia, too.

          Moore's slipshod relation to the facts gives him a credibility problem. People who frequent dKos already understand that there's an equal/greater credibility problem with the SCLM, but if someone does not see that, then when the SCLM talks about Moore's credibility problem, you end up with half the story and hate the wrong person.

          I think Franken takes this up in Lies: he suggests that his book was thoroughly fact-checked--in comparison to, say, Coulter's work. Part of this was, from my understanding, because Franken understood that, when held to a higher standard like the left is, he has to hit everything square. Coulter can suffer the accusations of bad facts--the SCLM will let her slide. But Franken knows that he has no similar friends in there. Hence, he has to make sure it's all dead on.

          This all said, Fahrenheit 9/11 was pleasant largely because Moore managed to present everything so straight--though I still could have handled less snark (starting the flick with a dud of a joke about who makes up Moore's dreamscape, for example, annoyed me). Maybe I just don't like jokes.

          •  A higher standard (none / 0)

            It's quite a predicament we're in, being at a disadvantage for having a higher standard.  It makes me think the Repubs withhold from funding education in order to maintain the advantage.

            The notion that journalism is inherently not objective is interesting.  Perhaps we should aim for polarity in the media rather than waiting for them to be more objective.  I'm certain a liberal leaning establishment, drawing from a larger base of creative talent, could compete with Fox and do quite well.  Air America is off to a good start, it would be nice to have something on TV -- we certainly have a lot of catching up to do.

            •  re:liberal leaning establishment (4.00 / 2)

              I'm certain a liberal leaning establishment, drawing from a larger base of creative talent, could compete with Fox and do quite well.  Air America is off to a good start, it would be nice to have something on TV

              hmm. how about a cable news channel that's basically the daily show 24/7?  laugh 'em out of town! the slant could be something like completely subjective newsertainment... but at least we're honest about it!  apparently lots of people - especially younger viewers - get all their news from satire sources like TDS, so there could be a big market for it.  and having a sense of humor about it is probably the only way liberals could work for something obviously biased like an anti-fox.

              we're rolling back the republican crime wave

              by zeke L on Sun Jul 18, 2004 at 08:14:22 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

    •  I could agree with you, except ... (4.00 / 2)

      ...that Michael Moore himself has made a very big deal about the fact-checking he did. Indeed, he's threatened - without his usual smile - legal action against those who accuse him of factual errors in F 9/11.
      "Grab whom you must. Do what you want."

      by Meteor Blades on Sun Jul 18, 2004 at 03:24:10 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  Not my point (none / 1)

        I'm not saying there are any factual errors.  I believe there are not.  The piont is that facts don't really matter.  

        F911 attacks Bush's character more than anything.  Facts are not needed to portray to people for who they are.  As you say yourself, the movie is most effictive because Bush is the main actor.  This whole charade about facts is just an effort to discredit the film, when in reality most people probably don't walk away thinking about facts.  They're left with the impression that Bush is not a leader and this war is not worth the cost.

        Liberals that perpetuate the notion that Moore is loose with the facts is not helpful to our cause.  It's not about the facts.

        •  um... (none / 0)

          How do you portray someone as they are without using facts?  If the portrayal isn't factual, it isn't true or accurate.
          •  It's the delivery not the words (none / 1)

            Moore uses some nifty editing to emphasize Bush's true character.  For example, in the scenes of my pet goat and his announcement of the war, Moore slows down the footage thereby placing emphasis on Bush's insecurities.  These qualities are often missed in real-time, but ever so important.

            If we debate the merit of the film only on facts it's easily for the Repubs to claim that certain facts are left out, or that scenes are taken out of context.  Consider the "haves and have mores" clip.  Repubs claim that it was said at an event that is supposed to be funny.  Both claims are factual.  The Problem is that that sort of humor is disturbing to the "have nots".  

        •  I'm sorry but this line ... (none / 1)

          ... The p[oi]nt is that facts don't really matter is just too Orwellian, too Rovian, too Limbaughian for my taste. That's more or less the argument Richard Perle and Ahmed Chalabi made about WMDs after the fact.

          I agree with you that Moore is an effective satirist who kick-punches his opponents in the most delightful way. The are-you-kidding look from the Congressman who is asked if he'd send his kid to fight in Iraq is worth the whole of F-9/11. If the only issue here was whether Moore is a great satirist who knows how to deflate the powers that be, then you'd get no argument from me.

          But this idea that Moore's presentation of the facts doesn't matter is bogus. They don't matter to those of us in the echo chamber, for sure. But so much of the praise at dKos for the movie has been built around the justifiable notion that it can be a helpful addition to our arsenal for defeating Bush in November. Since swing voters are the key target, and they could go either direction, it's important for us to be able to answer critics who claim Moore interpreted some facts inaccurately.

          If some swing voter at your workplace points out an alleged inaccuracy, and the only response you can make is: it's not about facts, the movie was merely satire - what effect do you think that argument will have on that voter's ballot box behavior?

          "Grab whom you must. Do what you want."

          by Meteor Blades on Sun Jul 18, 2004 at 04:56:15 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  I'm not always articulate in making a point (none / 0)

            But this idea that Moore's presentation of the facts doesn't matter is bogus.

            The Repubs want the debate to be about facts, because is distracts from debate about Bush.  I'm not saying we should concede any factual errors, there are none.  It was you who claimed he was a tad reckless in interpreting some of the facts.  Do you ever see many conservatives admitting that Fox is reckless in interpreting facts.  Noway.  I understand we're talking on a liberal blog and it doesn't really matter, but when talking with conservative friends I don't think we should concede so much.  We should answer critics assertions without compromise, but quickly shift the conversation to Bush.  The more time spent on debating the facts, the less time afforded to focus on Bush's incompetence.  "Why didn't Bush take action after learning of planes crashing into the tower?", "Isn't there a conflict of interest with Bush the presnit and his relationship to Saudis?", "Why aren't we seeing this war footage on the news?", etc, etc.

      •  Indeed (none / 1)

        Here's an excerpt from his recent interview in Entertainment Wkly:

        And I also went and hired the former chief counsel and head of fact-checking at The New Yorker and then she brought in some fact-checkers. I said tear the movie apart and find something wrong with it. I've done this for my other movies, too. I've had virtually no lawsuits. Four books, not one lawsuit. ''Awful Truth,'' two seasons, zero lawsuits. ''TV Nation''? Two seasons, one lawsuit, we won it. ''Bowling for Columbine,'' no lawsuits until the Oklahoma City bombers' brother sued us -- remember when we go into the bedroom and the gun is under the pillow? A privacy thing. ''The Big One,'' no lawsuits.

        "It is time to move forward. The country we carry in our hearts is waiting." --Bruce Springsteen

        by bunny on Sun Jul 18, 2004 at 04:06:44 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

      •  Actually... (none / 0)

        Moore's invited those who accuse him of factual errors to sue him for libel. He claims that he has more than enough documents to back up every single one of his claims.

        Nice try, though.

        •  Michael Moore told the New York Times ... (none / 0)

          "Any attempts to libel me will be met by force.  ...The most important thing we have is truth on our side. If they persist in telling lies, knowingly telling a lie with malice, then I'll take them to court."

          Nice try, though.

          "Grab whom you must. Do what you want."

          by Meteor Blades on Sun Jul 18, 2004 at 06:03:00 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

    •  Wrong. (4.00 / 2)

      There is absolutely no requirement that a documentary be objective. Take a look at some of the definitions of documentaries from actual film school texts, as diaried by skippy:
      the people and events on a documentary are real, i.e. the characters portray themselves (or tell about themselves) in events that are happening or have happened. yet all films are more or less fiction, pieces of composition, and their author's interpretation of the reality.

       a documentary film is not the truth and it should not even aim to the one and only truth. rather, it should open possibilities for interpretation and viewpoints to the period that it is depicting.

      There's more at the link.
      •  I'm not really disagreeing here (none / 0)

        There are definitions (I quoted one above) that say a documentary is supposed to be objective.  The reality is there isn't unique words to describe one that is and one that isn't, so both instances pass as documentary.

        The point here is that F911 is not objective.  So this notion of 59 deceits of F911 is itself deceitful.  Most of these deceits (and other critics as well) consist of claims that certain facts were left out or taken out of context.  Well no shit!  It's not supposed to be objective.  We take away much of their ammo away if make clear that the film is not supposed to be objective.

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