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  •  Bullshit (none / 1)

    Don't get me wrong. I don't really give a shit about a wad of cells just because they're alive. I'm a huge supporter of abortion rights because they SAVE human lives, they do not destroy them.

    But that doesn't make the decision to have an abortion simple. There is a lot of soul searching even if you do not believe it's a human life in the most meaningful sense. Just imagine how much more emotional things would be if you're on the fence about whether that thing growing inside of you can feel pain.

    "I will stand by Roe v Wade and reduce the number of unwanted pregnancies" -- that's dead simple. No nuance required. No compromise required.

    I don't see that as a compromise, I see that as a bonus: better sex education, more prevelence of contraception, and a reduction of the disadvantages that come from poverty. It's not bending over backwards, it's grabbing even more of what we already want.

    This is still bigger than any candidate. I'm for truth, no matter who tells it. I'm for justice, no matter who it's for or against.

    by danthrax on Tue Jan 25, 2005 at 09:51:05 AM PDT

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    •  Well said (none / 0)

      by ARingMD2B on Tue Jan 25, 2005 at 09:58:47 AM PDT

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    •  wrong (none / 0)


      saying "i stand with roe EVEN THOUGH i think abortion is tragic" is dumb, and if you havent noticed, it isnt winning ANYBODY over.

      think about this. clinton's "safe legal and rare" bullshit hasn't done ANYthing to get more supporters of roe. quite the contrary, there is slightly less public support overall for Roe, and remarkably less political support b/c republicans keep winning elections.

      take a look in the mirror. Clintonian politics failed the democrats from 1994 on. the abortion issue is just the most obvious of the lot

      those were good times, as far as we knew --colbert

      by AmericanHope on Tue Jan 25, 2005 at 10:45:32 AM PDT

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      •  who cares about clinton? (none / 0)

        I speak for myself.

        The fact that Hilary said something I agree with is purely coincidence.

        And I did sway someone with the "stop unwanted pregancies" argument. They voted Kerry this election, after equivocating on the fact that they hated both guys, and was leaning Bush because he was against abortion.

        There's no compromise here. All the policies are progressive and things that the Democrats should embrace. Pro choice, pro contraception, pro sex ed, anti poverty.

        The only thing I haven't refuted is the "tragic" comment. Acknowledging that some people have a very emotional time making the choice to abort isn't some kind of appeasement. It's just honest.

        This is still bigger than any candidate. I'm for truth, no matter who tells it. I'm for justice, no matter who it's for or against.

        by danthrax on Tue Jan 25, 2005 at 10:50:24 AM PDT

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        •  honesty isnt politics (none / 0)

          i dont care if "tragic" is honest. fact is, there are women who are "thrilled" they had an abortion. if hillary said "abortion is thrilling" would you think she is honest?

          and also, how do you know that anyone ever called their abortion tragic? you know that about as much as someone calling it thrilling.

          my point is this: Political success is easy to measure. Its measured in elections. Since 94, we lost the house, the senate, and the white house TWICE. ..Clintons--both bill and now hillary's approach to abortion rights has failed. if you cared about abortion rights, you'd want to change the rhetoric.

          those were good times, as far as we knew --colbert

          by AmericanHope on Tue Jan 25, 2005 at 10:58:48 AM PDT

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          •  We lost the house, (none / 1)

            senate and white house to pro-life people and you think it's the "rare" in "safe, legal and rare" that's the problem?

            I'm not saying we lost because of abortion, but you seem to be. Are you saying that Dems would win more by focusing more on abortion rights?

            by Erin on Tue Jan 25, 2005 at 11:09:38 AM PDT

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            •  yes, and other REAL principles (none / 0)

              absolutely. if the Dems actually stood up and said what they stood for--and stood strong-- they'd win more votes. If you look at opinion polls, alot of what W did was unpopular--but he beat Kerry. He beat Kerry b/c his message was "i mean what i say and i say what i mean"

              That goes a LONG way. esp in red states.

              The #1 hit that kerry kept taking over and over again was his "flip flopper" indecisive status. Its also why Rove was most afraid of running against Dean, who seemed to believe in what he said [bty, i didnt support dean, im just pointing that out]..

              those were good times, as far as we knew --colbert

              by AmericanHope on Tue Jan 25, 2005 at 11:25:58 AM PDT

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              •  okay (none / 1)

                but that's just this last election cycle. And, I'd venture to say that abortion is the one issue that most people see both parties as sticking to their guns on. I've known a number of Catholic women who vote Republican solely on abortion - they see Democrats as hard line pro-abortion.

                In terms of a general perception of Dem wishy-washyness, I'd say it has to do with caving on labor issues and the mainstream media's parroting of Repub spin.

                by Erin on Tue Jan 25, 2005 at 11:36:21 AM PDT

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          •  I know (none / 0)

            Because two of my ex girlfriends have dealt with teen pregnancy.

            One totally didn't think the baby was a human life and suffered like all hell through the decision because her boyfriend was an asshole and she loved him.

            One thought the baby was a human life, but was pro choice regardless, as a "lesser of two evils" kind of rationale. It was a damn hard choice, and in the end decided to have the baby and give it up for adoption.

            I wouldn't have used the word tragic. But when you get a phone call from somebody who is being shunned by her friends and even her parents, literally bawling their eyes out, I refuse to acknowledge your speculative equivelency between "thrilling" and "tragic".

            The fact that you think we lost the house, senate, and presidency because of a few abortion stances illustrates your narrowmindedness.

            Big tent. Many issues. Broad philosophical principles.

            This is still bigger than any candidate. I'm for truth, no matter who tells it. I'm for justice, no matter who it's for or against.

            by danthrax on Tue Jan 25, 2005 at 11:43:42 AM PDT

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        •  Also (none / 0)

          your personal story isn't demonstrating anything. Kerry lost the election. whether you converted one voter or not is not of any importance in terms of the election.

          "safe legal rare" is a failed strategy regardless of you converting 1 or even 100% of your particular friends. Until the Dems can proudly and TRUTHFULLY say

          "I BELIEVE IN CHOICE B/C ITS THE RIGHT THING ..not b/c its the popular thing..not b/c its gonna win me votes.."

          you know what? it will win you votes.

          those were good times, as far as we knew --colbert

          by AmericanHope on Tue Jan 25, 2005 at 11:01:27 AM PDT

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          •  Why is safe legal and rare (none / 0)

            Incompatible with "the right thing"?

            Abortions aren't fun, even if they're the right thing.

            I like prevention.

            This is still bigger than any candidate. I'm for truth, no matter who tells it. I'm for justice, no matter who it's for or against.

            by danthrax on Tue Jan 25, 2005 at 11:32:14 AM PDT

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