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  •  right (3.63 / 11)

    because as everybody knows, jews ONLY care about the welfare of other jews; thanks ever so much for reminding everyone of this most salient fact, so that we might better ignore all that jewish propaganda about participating in the civil rights movement of the 60s and so on

    Afflicted with post-partisan depression.

    by tomjones on Wed Dec 07, 2005 at 02:04:20 PM PST

    [ Parent ]

    •  Lieberman Marched for Lieberman (1.57 / 28)

      ....because he saw political advantage. More recently, he has supported the racist views of Charles Murray, author of The Bell Curve.

      In 2000, while running for VP, Lieberman made public statements to the effect that belief in god is the only basis for morality and ethics.

      Joe Lieberman is a racist and a religious bigot.

      And as I have argued elsewhere, Lieberman is as representative of Jewish people as Strom Thurmond was of white Christian Americans. No more and no less.

      White Americans of good faith publicly separated themselves from Thurmond and his ilk. It is incumbent on Jewish Americans of good faith to publicly distance themselves for Joe Lieberman, lest they wish to be thought apologists for his racism, religious bigotry, and callous indifference to torture and carnage.

      •  so let me get this straight... (none / 0)

        ...you're suggesting that since you believe Lieberman is a bigot, that makes it okay for you to be a bigot right back???

        Brilliant.

        Get over to the Green Mountain Daily! What are you still reading this sig for?

        by odum on Wed Dec 07, 2005 at 02:21:01 PM PST

        [ Parent ]

        •  umm (none / 0)

          It is not bigoted to point out someone's bigotry. That's like the Klan accusing Blacks of bigotry (against whites) for calling them racists. That makes no sense at all.

          And where did the commenter call for "bigoted actions" that justifies you of accusing them of "being bigoted right back"?  Nowhere that I can see. He just said that Mainstream Jews would do well, politically, to distance themselves from Lieberman and his ilk. Can you not see it as a legitimate concern that Lieberman might cause other Jews to be painted with his foul-smelling brush? Is it bigoted to not want Jewish people, generally, to have to endure such a shame?

          •  okay... (4.00 / 3)

            There was no mention of Lieberman's merits or lack thereof, just a throwaway post.

            The post didn't make the case that Lieberman was a bigot, it simply put his jewishness front and center as a standalone attack in-and-of-itself.

            When challenged by the suggestion that this wasn't an adequate basis for an attack, he then justified the post with the after-the-fact argument/suggestion that Lieberman was a bigot, and therefore the attack was justified. Again, the original attack was based ONLY on his ethnicity. It was one line.

            ...and then, he further demanded that all other Jews should stand up and be counted against Lieberman lest they be judged harshly.

            This aint good.

            Get over to the Green Mountain Daily! What are you still reading this sig for?

            by odum on Wed Dec 07, 2005 at 04:59:27 PM PST

            [ Parent ]

            •  You must have missed this part: (none / 0)

              ....because he saw political advantage. More recently, he has supported the racist views of Charles Murray, author of The Bell Curve.

              In 2000, while running for VP, Lieberman made public statements to the effect that belief in god is the only basis for morality and ethics.

              Joe Lieberman is a racist and a religious bigot.

              Of course, if you figure this needed to have footnotes to qualify as a 'case for bigotry' then I'm fresh out.

              •  take a deep breath... (none / 0)

                ...go back up, and re-read my post again.

                The "justification" you cut-and-pasted came from the second post. The same post that was an attempt at a retroactive justification for a throwaway post that insulted him only -- only -- by referring to his ethnnicity/religion. The retroactive justification came a little late.

                ....and you conveniently leave off the last paragraph of that same post that demands all Jews stand up and repudiate Lieberman of face the wrath of the majority.

                Really, why are some of you still defending this garbage? To cling onto this so angrily at this point would seem to take you dangerously close to white-hood territory. What exactly are you clinging onto so vehemently, here?? You'll find very few defenders of Joementum's atrocious politics hereabouts (especially as regards the Iraq war), but for a few of you that just isn't enough. And it seems to make you really mad.

                I'm sure you're a smart guy ...why exactly is that?

                Get over to the Green Mountain Daily! What are you still reading this sig for?

                by odum on Wed Dec 07, 2005 at 09:03:48 PM PST

                [ Parent ]

          •  Stereotyping and Collective Responsibility (4.00 / 2)

            You are saying that when Lieberman states a position, other Jews should have a legitimate concern that they will be perceived as sharing that position simply because they too are Jews. Therefore, you say, Jews should proactively defend themselves, because otherwise people will attribute one prominent Jew's views to all Jews.
            That kind of stereotyping is inherently as absurd as it is bigoted.
            To live under the shadow of "enduring the shame" (your phrase) of bigots' misperceptions would be to lose the benefits of American freedoms, and would have a chilling effect on the psyche.
            Jews, like everyone else, are entitled to the respectful assumption that they have individual opinions.  Jews, like everyone else, are responsible for participating in the election of Senators from their state, not for the positions of Senators who happen also to be Jews.
            If you, or those you defend upthread, believe in the "collective responsibility" of any American ethnic group for the positions of one of its members, it hard to characterize that view as anything but bigotry.  Or is it just innocent condescension?

            Democrats: Members of the Democratic Party working to advance democracy; Republicons: Members of the Republicanist Party working to advance Republicanism

            by word is bond on Wed Dec 07, 2005 at 07:12:10 PM PST

            [ Parent ]

            •  actually there are bigots (none / 0)

              ..on both sides....I can't count the number of times, or the groups, jewish and others who kept "calling on" ad nausum, the american muslim community to denounce the other muslims....over and over and over..saying they should "collectively" speak out against the radicals and wern't vocal enough in condemning them.

              So this collective responsibility thing is used by every Tom, Dick and Harry with an agenda.

              Two of the most replusive and vocal with this tactic since 911 were Daniel Pipes, a bigot Jew and Larry Franklin, a bigot gentile christian leader.

              Hypocrisy in anything may deceive the cleverest and most penetrating man, but the least wide-awake of children recognizes it....

              by Cal45 on Wed Dec 07, 2005 at 09:48:06 PM PST

              [ Parent ]

      •  I do not need (4.00 / 12)

        some asshole such as yourself deciding what is "incumbent" on Jews to do.

        Whatever policy differences I have with Lieberman, and whatever annoyances I have with his rhetoric, I can decide for myself, thank you very much.

        And although I wouldn't appoint myself spokesperson for the Jewish people, I can say with some confidence that their actions will be based on what they feel is right, not because greenskeeper demands a loyalty test from us.

        There are legitimate reasons to be unhappy with Joe.  Greenskeeper and several others, however, show that along with those sentiments, there is also there is a strong undercurrent of bigotry.

        As such, I do not intend to bash Lieberman, certainly not in this forum.  It gives credence to the disgusting antisemitism that has infested the debate.  And that is simply more worrysome or more pressing than whether Joe says something on Fox News that Markos doesn't like.

        If missiles were falling where my two daughters sleep, I would do everything in order to stop that. -- President Barack Obama

        by JPhurst on Wed Dec 07, 2005 at 02:25:54 PM PST

        [ Parent ]

        •  You Don't Like My Tone, OK. (1.00 / 13)

          I don't like your willingness give an unapologetic racist and a religious bigot who consistently undercuts everything his political party stands for a pass.

          Your stance is precisely the same as those Southerners who said "we aren't racists, we just don't like outside agitators coming in here to tell us how to handle our business."

          That's ok too. Seen it before, I'll see it again.

          •  It's not your tone (2.66 / 6)

            It's your substance.  You are an antisemitic bigot who routinely stoops to jew bashing in your Lieberman screeds.

            Lieberman is not a bigot.  Anyone who objectively looks at his record can see that personally and politically he has been progressive.

            But he's too Jewish for you.  Your problem, not mine.

            If missiles were falling where my two daughters sleep, I would do everything in order to stop that. -- President Barack Obama

            by JPhurst on Wed Dec 07, 2005 at 02:55:59 PM PST

            [ Parent ]

            •  Naah... (none / 0)

              I just give Lieberman the same treatment that progressives routinely give to Christian religious bigots such as Dobson, Robertson, and Falwell, and that moderates and conservatives give to Islamic religious bigots such as the late Ayatollah Khomeini.

              Good for the goose, good for the gander.

              •  Except that... (none / 1)

                Lieberman, although Orthodox, is not demanding that Jewish law govern all of society.

                There are no similarities at all, and it is shameful and racist of you to suggest otherwise.

                If missiles were falling where my two daughters sleep, I would do everything in order to stop that. -- President Barack Obama

                by JPhurst on Wed Dec 07, 2005 at 03:12:28 PM PST

                [ Parent ]

                •  Tell it to the Palestinians on the West Bank n/t (none / 0)

                  •  I see... (none / 1)

                    ...now who is it you are claiming of having misplaced loyalties?

                    If missiles were falling where my two daughters sleep, I would do everything in order to stop that. -- President Barack Obama

                    by JPhurst on Wed Dec 07, 2005 at 03:30:35 PM PST

                    [ Parent ]

                    •  Silly Me.... (2.00 / 3)

                      .....thinking that a consistent United States policy regarding such things as routine violations of UN Resolutions, government policies that flagrantly violate the Geneva Conventions regarding the responsibilities of Occupying Powers, active WMD Programs involving chemical, biological and nuclear weapons, and policies of collective punishment and targeted assassination, all of which fall into the broader category of adherence to international treaties on the obligations of sovereign nations and guarantees of Universal Human Rights -- to which the United States is a signatory -- might involve something more insidious than a genuine commitment to actually honoring the treaties we sign.

                      That's not a divided loyalty, that's simply a wish that my government not continually undercut its moral standing by looking the other way while a purported ally thumbs its nose at international law and creates massive human suffering and regional instability that poses a direct threat to my nation's legitimate interests.

                      •  Every charge you just made... (4.00 / 3)

                        ..can be applied doubly to the Palestinians and the governments of the neighboring Arab countries. But you conveniently ignore that.

                        So therefore, when a Jewish politician supports Israel, he is therefore like Strom Thurmund or Jerry Falwell who support white supremacy and religious theocracy. So since I support Israel's right to exist (although not all of its policies), I'm also a racist/imperialist/fanatic and it's incumbent on the rest of the "good" Jews out there to distance themselves from me.

                        Glad I understand. You are an anti-semitic a-hole. Let me explain this more simply to you. Working for peace in the middle east by trying to get both sides to behave is a good Progressive thing to do. Mindlessly bashing Israel with no regard for context or history is anti-Zionism, which as Martin Luther King, Jr. so clearly stated, is nothing more than thinly disguised anti-Semitism.

              •  Now, wait a minute. (none / 0)

                You said Lieberman was supporting Charles Murray of The Bell Curve. Can you please supply a link to back your assertion?
            •  i don't think libermann is too jewish. (none / 0)

              for me that is not the point and i resent when someone infers that it is. that is not aimed at you, but i have seen that on the net. i do believe that libermann does reflect the attitudes of the likud party way too much for my taste. that is policy and not religeon!
          •  No Seriously (none / 1)

            You're an anti-Semite (or at least making anti-semetic remarks).  It's difficult for me to read what you write here, and I'm a very dedicated Kossack.  You bring down the level of the debate.

            Please stop.

            It is not upon you to finish the Work, but neither shall you, O child of freedom, refrain from it.

            by DoGooderLawyer on Wed Dec 07, 2005 at 07:16:58 PM PST

            [ Parent ]

          •  Lieberman's not racist (none / 0)

            And he's certainly not a religious bigot.  I have yet to see Joe go on television and say that he wants Arabs/blacks/whatever discriminated against, nor have I seen him say that he wants to force all Americans to fast and atone on Yom Kippur.

            It's an unfair and very unfounded accusation.

            Mitt Palindalhuckalenty for President in 2012.

            by DH from MD on Wed Dec 07, 2005 at 07:38:14 PM PST

            [ Parent ]

        •  WHATEVER...and you can zero me all you want! (3.40 / 5)

          I think most on the Left voted for Lieberman on Gore's ticket in 2000.  Ever since 9/11, Lieberman has been in lock step with Sharon and Bush to remake  the Middle East using their neo-con imperial design.

          It's not his religion, it's his comments and policy to continue supporting an illegal war based on lies.

          Joe Lieberman is helping AIPAC and a foreign government undermine our foreign policy.  Invading and occupying Iraq, hurts not only the US, but Israel too.  Peace in the middle East guarantees Israel's survival.  So how are we bigots?
          http://www.commondreams.org/...

          The potential support of the Jewish State has been enhanced since 9/11, as a result of the daily reporting of US GIs killed by Arab/Muslim terrorists, the July 2005 terror blitz in London, the recent Muslim riots in France and the ongoing campaign of Islamic terrorism from the Philippines through Bali, India, Spain and Mauritania. Never has the image of Arabs/Muslims been so low, and never has Israel benefited from such a high potential of support.
          http://www.israelunitycoalition.org/...

          "Do not try to appease the Arabs at our expense," Sharon warned Washington in an October 2001 speech. "Don't repeat the terrible mistakes of 1938, when the enlightened democracies in Europe decided to sacrifice Czechoslovakia for a comfortable, temporary solution," he added. Israel "won't be Czechoslovakia." Pressed by an angry Bush administration, Sharon later backed off from his remarks.
          http://cfrterrorism.org/...

          •  None of your links... (3.00 / 4)

            ...have anything to do with Lieberman.  The first is Juan Cole complaining that Jews give too much money to campaigns.  The second and third are just news accounts of how the war on terror has affected U.S. Israeli relations.

            Then there's the typical "necon AIPAC Likudnik" crap which is of no substance.

            No, I don't need to troll rate you.  I just pity you.

            If missiles were falling where my two daughters sleep, I would do everything in order to stop that. -- President Barack Obama

            by JPhurst on Wed Dec 07, 2005 at 03:19:55 PM PST

            [ Parent ]

            •  asdf (3.40 / 5)

              not endorsing any other comments, but must reply to you're statement:
              Then there's the typical "necon AIPAC Likudnik" crap which is of no substance.

              We are in Iraq in large part because AIPAC does such a great job of influencing US policymakers to advance Israeli interests. It has nothing to do with religion and everything to do with the sheer volume of campaign contributions AIPAC gives to members of both parties (and of all religious persuasions). Any public official who is critical of Israeli policy is labled an anti-Semite and hounded by the ADL, then spent out of office by AIPAC.

              Read "They Dare to Speak Out"

              Unfortunately for Israel (and US strategic interests in the region) that it blew up in their faces and now Iran (a bigger threat to Israel than Iraq ever was) is in better position to carry out their insane plan to wipe Israel off the map.

              Labor creates all wealth - Organize!

              by fartofliving on Wed Dec 07, 2005 at 05:09:14 PM PST

              [ Parent ]

              •  You're going to tell me that (none / 1)

                AIPACs contributions are in the same league as the Oil industry? How about the Defense industry? Get real.

                Meanwhile, if you think it's Israel/AIPAC driving the bus, take a look at Thomas P. M. Barnett's work/proposals, all about making the world save for globalism. This is what PNAC is about and what Iraq is about. The degree to which the Israeli government and AIPAC thought this would be in their interests is the degree to which they backed the effort. They sure as shit didn't cook this up in their basement, nor did they get Bush elected to do their bidding.

                Do some research and get your facts straight before you spout a bunch of garbage.

                Democracy is a contact sport...

                by jsmagid on Wed Dec 07, 2005 at 06:00:09 PM PST

                [ Parent ]

                •  A-yep (none / 1)

                  The thing is, Israel and Sharon were as much victims of Ahmad Chalabi and the PNAC Platoon as are Americans.  (Though not as much as Iraqis, obviously.)  Israel backed the invasion on the idea that it would make Israel safer; instead, the terror attacks on Israel have increased as Israel feels the Muslim anger at its part in the invasion and occupation of Iraq, and Iraq has had its old secular, Israel-neutral government replaced by one that is Iran-friendly and Israel-hostile.

                  Chalabi conned Sharon and his coterie into thinking that Saddam Hussein, who up until recently was seen by Sharon's controlling Likud party as a necessary evil holding back the torrent of Iranian-style Islamic revolution, could and should easily be toppled and replaced with a democratic, secular, and Israel-friendly government.  

                  What actually happened is that Chalabi, whose ties with Iran are too well known to be rehashed here, conned Iran's most powerful enemy (the US) into invading Iran's bitterest enemy (Iraq) with the encouragement of Iran's second-most-powerful enemy (Israel).  

                  Now, Iraq is not only destroyed as far as being a threat to Iran, it's well on its way to becoming Iran's best friend.  The US, in the meantime, is so overstretched trying to keep the oil flowing and the contractors safe that they can't spare the time to keep the mullahs from taking over and turning back the clock on Iraq's last hundred years.  (Did you know that in the 1960s, women could wear miniskirts in downtown Baghdad and feel perfectly safe?  And that most university graduates under Saddam were women -- and that under Saddam, all uni grads got jobs straight out of school?  Nowadays, Iraqi women will be lucky to be allowed to learn to read, and they certainly won't be able to hold jobs, much less careers.)

                  Gotta hand it to Ahmad:  Working for his masters in Teheran, he pulled off the greatest scam of the century.  Iran's now sitting pretty, poised to control the oil of Iraq once the fighting dies down, and the US can't do a damned thing about it.

                  Visit http://theuptake.org/ for Minnesota news as it happens.

                  by Phoenix Woman on Wed Dec 07, 2005 at 08:59:08 PM PST

                  [ Parent ]

                  •  Re: (none / 0)

                    Israel backed the invasion on the idea that it would make Israel safer;
                    You know, I've seen lots of posts stating things along these lines, but I've never seen any source references - not that they dont' exist, or this isn't generally true - that back it up.

                    Regardless, I think, given the recent Kos post on Israel bucking BushCo on Syria, it's just as plausible that Israeli leadership's primary motivation was the belief that it was wise politically to support Bush with the expectation of support in return for what they wanted to do - and this was pretty much the case. They just didn't bargain for BushCo being as grossly incompetent as they've turned out to be.

                    As for

                    Israel backed the invasion on the idea that it would make Israel safer; instead, the terror attacks on Israel have increased as Israel feels the Muslim anger at its part in the invasion and occupation of Iraq, and Iraq has had its old secular, Israel-neutral government replaced by one that is Iran-friendly and Israel-hostile.
                    I've not been keeping score, but I do pay attention and I'd be hard pressed to conclude that terror attaks in Israel have increased since the Iraq invasion.

                    IMO, the terror situation in Israel is by and large a function of Israel's security actions in and around the territories.

                    Democracy is a contact sport...

                    by jsmagid on Thu Dec 08, 2005 at 12:04:12 PM PST

                    [ Parent ]

                •  read (none / 0)

                  "in large part"
                  certainly not implying that AIPAC was "driving the bus", as you put it.  AIPAC backed the war - AIPAC is an incredibly powerful and effective lobby, why do you deny that?
                  Why don't you read posts carefully before commenting on them?

                  Labor creates all wealth - Organize!

                  by fartofliving on Wed Dec 07, 2005 at 10:43:10 PM PST

                  [ Parent ]

                  •  I read your post (none / 0)

                    And you said
                    We are in Iraq in large part because AIPAC does such a great job of influencing US policymakers to advance Israeli interests.

                    and I think that's total bull shit. AIPAC is an effective lobby in that it knows where and how to dovetail with other powerfull lobby's that leverages their capabilities and multiplies their influence.

                    If AIPAC had opposed the war do you think it wouldn't have happened? Fat chance.

                    Democracy is a contact sport...

                    by jsmagid on Thu Dec 08, 2005 at 11:53:04 AM PST

                    [ Parent ]

                    •  would the war have happened??? (none / 0)

                      i don't think so. i do believe that airpac has too much influence. i don't think it is healthy for the usa or isreal.
                      •  So you, correct me if I'm wrong, (none / 0)

                        believe BushCo takes orders from AIPAC then (if you think their opposition would have stopped the war).

                        AIPAC may well have outsized influence, but to think that BushCo takes orders from the Israeli lobby to the degree that he/they wouldn't have invaded Iraq doesn't pass the laugh test.

                        Hell, they had no problem committing a whole raft of crimes to make the war happen but they wouldn't have dared cross AIPAC? Please.

                        Democracy is a contact sport...

                        by jsmagid on Fri Dec 09, 2005 at 02:40:07 PM PST

                        [ Parent ]

              •  typical paranoid crap (none / 1)

                Ah yes, all the Jewish advocacy groups are conspiring.  The ADL, then AIPAC.  Never mind that neither group makes political contributions.

                AIPAC members were divided on whether the Iraq war was a good idea.  The organization certainly did not take a very active stance, although my guess is that it at least tacitly thought the idea of removing Saddam "God Damn The Jews" Hussein was a good idea.  However, it played very little, if any role, in the decision to go to war.

                As for the two Congressmen mentioned in this thread that were "victimized" by AIPAC, Percy and Findley.  They were replaced by Paul Simon and Richard Durbin, two excellent progressive voices.  AIPAC doesn't give a dime in contributions, but hey, I would GLADLY take credit for replacing those two.  Simon was one of the best Senators we had, and Durbin is a strong and progressive leader of the Dems now.

                If missiles were falling where my two daughters sleep, I would do everything in order to stop that. -- President Barack Obama

                by JPhurst on Thu Dec 08, 2005 at 05:35:09 AM PST

                [ Parent ]

                •  Durbin.... (none / 1)

                  ....was recently victimized too, when he was forced to publicly recant after quite properly observing the parallels between Abu Ghraib and Nazi interrogation practices.

                  But Dick Durbin is an acceptable progressive, especially because of his sensitivity and his responsiveness to the obedience training.

                  •  I suppose (none / 0)

                    you will blame that on AIPAC as well?

                    If missiles were falling where my two daughters sleep, I would do everything in order to stop that. -- President Barack Obama

                    by JPhurst on Thu Dec 08, 2005 at 07:27:08 AM PST

                    [ Parent ]

                    •  In Part, Absolutely (none / 1)

                      .....but there being no unitary causes for anything, there's lots of blame to spread around.

                      Not that it's terribly hard to find fault with an organization whose head engaged in espionage on the behalf of, if not at the instigation of, a foreign government whose interests are often at variance with American interests.

                      •  Try again (none / 1)

                        No one "spied" on behalf of Israel for AIPAC.

                        No from AIPAC condemned Durbin's remarks.

                        For you to try to blame this on AIPAC, or Israeli interests, is truly disgraceful.

                        But you already disgraced yourself when you demanded that us Jews take a loyalty oath by condemning someone whose politics did not meet your litmus test.

                        If missiles were falling where my two daughters sleep, I would do everything in order to stop that. -- President Barack Obama

                        by JPhurst on Thu Dec 08, 2005 at 08:38:47 AM PST

                        [ Parent ]

                        •  Spin verging on Mendacity (none / 0)

                          It is technically correct to say that no one has been CONVICTED of spying. But Larry Franklin is most certainly under indictment for passing sensitive classified information to Steve Rosen and Keith Weissman, who are both under indictment for illegal receipt of classified information. Rosen's indictment also references his role in passing that in turn to officials at the Israeli Embassy in Washington.

                          The best overview I've seen to date was produced by billmon at Whiskey Bar, with numerous links back to news accounts:

                          http://billmon.org/...

                          While you may be, again, technically correct in saying that "no one from (i.e. with a staff position) AIPAC (publicly) condemned Durbin's remarks (while speaking as an official representative of AIPAC)," your statement is, at best, a classic non-denial denial.

                          The best overview of the nature and reach of AIPAC lobbying I've found to date was published in The New Yorker, and if you read far enough, the close relationship between AIPAC and Dick Durbin's rise to public prominence is detailed within that piece. Every politician knows the penalty for failing to dance with the one that brung you.

                          http://www.newyorker.com/...

                          Your ability to parse is impressive, nearly Jesuitical, as is the slim relationship between the facts you torture and the substantively false and obfuscatory assertions your "reasoning" process produces.

                          •  Not parsing anything... (none / 0)

                            just pointing out what is true and what is alleged.  Billmon has always been vehemently anti-Israel and anti anyone who dareth speak out in favor of Israel, so he is useless on this discussion.

                            There are no allegations of spying or espionage in the indictment.  The indictment alleges that Franklin disclosed certain classified information to two AIPAC officials (Rosen and Weisman).  In turn, they told an official at the Israeli embassy, a reporter, and a White House official.  You conveniently omitted the last two.

                            This is a pretty piss poor way of "spying."  If there was espionage involved, the agents would have gone to their handlers, and not the entire friggin world.

                            But that's because it wasn't spying.  Franklin had long been trying to use Rosen and others not to spy, but to advocate on his behalf.  Franklin was a hardliner on the Iran issue, and wanted help from outside lobbyists to press his case.

                            So Franklin gets busted, and the feds turn him to sting AIPAC.  He concocts a story about Israelis agents being in Iraq and that their lives are in immediate danger.  So Rosen and Weisman inform the Israeli embassy about an immediate threat to life.  They also go to two other sources.

                            This is not spying or espionage by any stretch of the imagination.  And in fact the government is using the statutory provisions at issue in a way not used before.  The offense of disclosing classified information has always been used to prevent GOVERNMENT OFFICIALS from disclosing such info.  The government is now using it to restrain MEMBERS OF THE PUBLIC from disclosing information about government affairs.

                            In other words, the Bush administration is essentially trying to create its own version of the Official Secrets Act.  Even Arab lobbyists admit that this type of information is "stock in trade" that they use in Washington.

                            Had this been used against anyone else, I'm sure you'd be a loyal kossack and scream bloddy murder at the repression of free speech.  You'd probably even blame AIPAC for being behind it.

                            But here, the government is using it to hunt down two Jews who advocate on behalf of a strong U.S. Israel relationship.  So you don't mind smearing them and supporting the Bush regime.

                            The only question is, which is worse?  That you are an antisemitic bigot?  Or that you will betray your allegedly progressive principals when the issue is Jews or Israel?

                            If missiles were falling where my two daughters sleep, I would do everything in order to stop that. -- President Barack Obama

                            by JPhurst on Thu Dec 08, 2005 at 10:02:41 AM PST

                            [ Parent ]

                            •  Your Argument (none / 0)

                              ....is that improper transactions in classified information are merely a routine and accepted form of lobbying.

                              My argument is that such improper transactions in classified information are spying, and this is an instance in which lobbying has become indistinguishable from spying. The claim that Rosen and Weissman talked with a reporter is a red herring that has no bearing on their improper sharing of improperly received information with the military attache of the Israeli Embassy and your claim that this is a backdoor maneuver to create an OSA is, frankly, absurd. You simply have your panties in a bunch because AIPAC is being held to account for a one instance in a larger ongoing pattern of behavior which your legal analysis indicates had not been previously prosecuted in precisely the way this case is being prosecuted. The defense you offer is "well officer, I'd always gotten away with it before, what's the big deal?" I'll give you points for chutzpah.

                              If it is your view that opposition to the policies of the State of Israel not only disqualifies all criticism and renders it, in your word "useless," but removes any obligation to meaningfully address the facts beyond a pro forma "everybody does it" defense, then what you are engaged in is both a variant on what Daniel Patrick Moynihan once called "defining deviance downward," and an argument that since all criticism is, by definition, illegitimate, all criticism is illegitimate. That's what we call a tautology.

                              You further confuse the issue with false choice between your repeated allegation of anti-semitic bigotry and an alternate allegation of betrayal of largely unenumerated and undefined progressive principles which you seem to assert I have and have abdicated, which is a cute tactic, but utterly unsupported by any knowledge you have of what constitutes my "progressive principles."

                              It is, conversely, my view that a strong relationship between the US and Israel must first be predicated on good faith efforts by the Israeli government to abide by relevant UN resolutions, to abide by the Geneva Conventions, to end the practice of targeted assassination, to make a full disclosure of all WMD Programs and stockpiles, and to abide by its obligations under the roadmap. In the persistent absence of such efforts, an absence which has a continuing destabilizing effect on the Middle East which damages US strategic and tactical interests as well as undercutting any US claims to moral legitimacy in global diplomacy, Israel must be regarded as a rogue client state unwilling to engage in good-faith partnership with the United States.

                              That stance is neither anti-progressive nor anti-semitic. Conversely, your stance may be reasonably characterized as semitocentric special pleading and exceptionalism unmoored to the advance of Western Enlightenment principles of human rights and democracy. Inasmuch as a)  respect for those principles is the primary basis for any substantive "strong relationship" between the US and Israel and b) is the primary basis for all Western progressivism, your final query is willfully mendacious in both form and substance.

                              •  Your argument... (none / 0)

                                ...that such "transactions" are spying, would be thrown out of court.  Because not even the government tried to bring espionage charges.

                                Because once again, there was no espionage.  There was a frustrated DOD analyst who wanted help lobbying position.  That simply does not translate into spying.  Spying would be if, at the behest of Israel, the AIPAC agents unlawfully obtained secret information for Israel's use.  It wasn't what happened here, and wasn't what anyone alleged except the conspiracy theorists.

                                As for the rest of the message, it is the usual racist claptrap blaming Israel for defending itself against warmongering neighbors and suicide terrorists.  It has nothing to do with "semitocentrism" (did you have fun using that word?) and everything to do with supporting a liberal democratic society surrounded by autocrats, theocrats, and terrorists that have tried to annihilate it from day one.

                                If missiles were falling where my two daughters sleep, I would do everything in order to stop that. -- President Barack Obama

                                by JPhurst on Thu Dec 08, 2005 at 11:10:56 AM PST

                                [ Parent ]

                                •  With All Due Respect (none / 1)

                                  Israel itself is a theocracy with liberal democratic structures of governance.

                                  Again, you frame your closing argument in terms of either/or choices based on a demonstrably false premise. But I guess when you feel threatened, rules, standards and principles are merely useful tricks for antagonists fool enough to believe that you have any use for them except as stratagems, clubs, or snares.

                                  You are, of course, free to pull any definition you wish out of your ass, to make any unfounded implication regarding why the particular charges filed were filed, to do so without offering any support for your assertion other than your own certainty of your rightness, and to dismiss any disagreement as bigotry.

                                  We can take the matter up again after the 2006 elections and the conclusion of the legal proceedings and investigations currently underway involving Keith Weissman, Steve Rosen, Larry Franklin, Douglas Feith, Richard Perle, Conrad Black, et al.

                                  At that point, the evidence will be a bit clearer and -- presumably -- less susceptible to either your, or my, predispositions.

                                  In the interim, it would appear that the consensus against Joe Lieberman is developing length, breadth, and depth. May it swallow him swiftly and pass him into the outer darkness from which there is no return.

                                  •  Funnt (none / 0)

                                    I didn't see any indictments against Perle, Feith, Black, etc.

                                    But I suppose anyone whose Jewish or who supports them should be a suspect in your twisted mind.

                                    There may be a "consensus" around Lieberman, although there is plenty of dissent on kos itself, more dissent within the entire democratic party, and significantly more disagreement around the country.

                                    But for you, this wasn't about the policy prescriptions, or even the rhetoric, of Senator Lieberman.  This is for you a demand that any Jew swear fealty to your warped worldview or be cast out as a racist.  On that, I was happy to see, you were roundly trounced.

                                    Instead, you start going off on a tangent about AIPAC, and Israel, and alleged "espionage" cases, and other things having nothing to do with Senator Lieberman, but very much to do with your bigotry.

                                    To an extent, I was wondering if I should even follow these tangents, because there's not much point in diverting from the topic at hand.

                                    Nevertheless, it is worth it, because in your rantings, you show that for at least some people, beneath the "legitimate criticism" of Joe Lieberman is a disgusting and racist cesspool filled with conspiracy theories.

                                    Fortunately, your type is not dominant on the left.  At the very least, the right has been able to put its David Dukes, Pat Buchanans, and Justin Raimondos in their rightful place on the sidelines.  It's time we did the same with trash like yourself.

                                    If missiles were falling where my two daughters sleep, I would do everything in order to stop that. -- President Barack Obama

                                    by JPhurst on Thu Dec 08, 2005 at 12:37:20 PM PST

                                    [ Parent ]

                                    •  Black is Under Indictment (none / 0)

                                      ...in Chicago for looting Hollinger International while pimping the war.

                                      Feith is under investigation. Perle is under investigation. My post said indicted or under investigation. You prefer to selectively quote and claim a win. Why? Because you are a liar who believes that his lies are justified given the righteousness of your cause.

                                      The initial AIPAC diversion was you picking up on another poster, not me. I fleshed it out a bit in direct response to you. But if you want to lie about that too, fine. It's just as well that you drop the pretense of lying by inference and implication and move to baldfaced and shameless lies.

                                      The bottom line is that after a large number of postings on multiple threads in which I made substantive criticisms of Lieberman on a wide variety of policy bases -- which you claimed to have read, and I make no judgement about whether you lied about that fact or lied about their substance, although it is increasingly apparent that you are a recidivist liar -- I took an exceedingly harsh cheap shot in exceedingly poor taste at Lieberman. It's called black humor. Maybe only stupid Micks like me get it.

                                      Do you lie intentionally out of cunning or habitually out of fear and willfull ignorance?

                                      I neither know, nor care. That's your individual problem.

                                      Nor do I need to tar you by association with prominent loathsome individuals or crypto-nazi rhetoric like "it's time we did the same with trash like yourself."

                                      In this extended interlude, you have become precisely what you claim to despise: you offer nothing but invective, misrepresentation, supposition, misdirected inference and implication, and now, bald-faced lies.

                                      AT this point, aside from the two of us, I very much doubt anyone else gives a shit about the two assholes in the corner continuing an argument that has gone on far too long, except to the extent that they keep an eye out to insure it doesn't spill over into some larger conflict.

                                      Good on them.

                    •  with all due respect, have you (none / 0)

                      seen what the members of the likud party do and say here in the usa. they supported the war on iraq, but now i think they may begin to see it was a great mistake.
            •  ...eesh... (none / 0)

              The first [link] is Juan Cole complaining that Jews give too much money to campaigns.

              A lovely example of how the world appears through the eyes of the what another poster here called the "Israeli shock squads". Is that what you garnered from Juan Cole's opinion piece?

              There is a long hit list of US politicians who were insufficiently obsequious toward the policy of Israeli hawks in the Occupied Territories, whom AIPAC helped unseat by encouraging donations to their opponents. The Charles Percy case became legendary in Congress, and discouraged senators and congressmen from taking on AIPAC.
              Guess he's another anti-seminole. Seems to be epidemic.

              Slap it. Shoot it. Kaboot it.

              by adios on Wed Dec 07, 2005 at 08:41:16 PM PST

              [ Parent ]

          •  ha (none / 0)

            Lieberman is the reason I voted for Nader in 2000.

            Just because you're self-righteous doesn't mean you're not a hypocrite.

            by AMcG826 on Wed Dec 07, 2005 at 07:16:31 PM PST

            [ Parent ]

      •  Wrong. (4.00 / 5)

        Once upon a time Joe literly risked his life by going down South to help register black voters so your Strom Thurmond remark is particularly disgusting.

        Joe is a great disappoint to us all on Iraq but that doesn't mean that he is a bigot or a racist.

        11/4 Changed Everything - Now, Henceforward, and Forever.

        by Sam I Am on Wed Dec 07, 2005 at 03:27:57 PM PST

        [ Parent ]

    •  Well said. (4.00 / 3)

      Joe is a jerk and a Rethug DESPITE being Jewish.

      -4.25, -7.28 Never in my name, ever again

      by gmoney on Wed Dec 07, 2005 at 03:25:48 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

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