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  •  asdf (none / 0)

    the white southerners feel like their voices are being muzzled

    would that it were true.

    surf putah, your friendly neighborhood central valley samizdat

    by wu ming on Sun Feb 13, 2005 at 08:00:35 PM PDT

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    •  what (none / 0)

      what?

      lean on me.

      by desiunion on Sun Feb 13, 2005 at 08:01:17 PM PDT

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    •  You guys just don't get it (none / 1)

      The confederate flag is often revered NOT because it represents slavery, but because it represents the thousands of men who fought and died for their country.  Can you not realize this?  Christ, give this a rest.  Are there bigots, racists, and nutcases in the south?  Yes, of course there are.  But there are also those of us who love the south, the history - excluding the slavery issue - and take pride in our part of the country.  I like to think we are in the majority, but perhaps not yet.  But we are trying to fix things, without completely erasing the rest of our history.  What do you want us to do?  Remove the headstones from the Confederate graves too?
      I now reside in WI.  Should WI wipeout all reference to the 50s because of Joe McCarthy?  

      "But your flag decal won't get you into heaven anymore"--Prine 4130+ dead Americans. Bring them home.

      by Miss Blue on Sun Feb 13, 2005 at 08:56:49 PM PDT

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      •  yes but mostly no (none / 0)

        On your first point, give me a break.  Southerners do not fly the confederate flag in recognition of the men who fought and died for the confederacy.  It was 140 years ago, and nobody has any personal connections to them anymore.  I agree that it is also not, for the most party, a celebration of slavery or an expression of racism.  I think it mostly boils down to one of more of the following: group think, tradition, rebellion, anti-yankeeism, and stubbornness.  None of which are particularly significant.  I suggest the South find a more meaningful way to celebrate their heritage than to embody it within the flag of a failed secessionist movement 140 years ago.  I can't think of a more ridiculous way to say "I'm proud to be Southern."

        by R Lucian on Sun Feb 13, 2005 at 09:13:16 PM PDT

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        •  Are you from the South? (none / 1)

          My guess is no.  The flag IS the south.  What would you suggest we replace it with - a cotton ball?  Sorry you don't like it, but for a southerner, nothing says it like the flag.  I have abandoned it, as so many others have, because of the negative feelings it brings out in so many others, but I feel a loss.  I would love to fly it proudly up here in the north, but my better judgement prevents me from doing so.

          "But your flag decal won't get you into heaven anymore"--Prine 4130+ dead Americans. Bring them home.

          by Miss Blue on Sun Feb 13, 2005 at 09:18:46 PM PDT

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          •  yea (none / 0)

            I see your point, thats what i said above. I never really took offense to the flag on the general lee in dukes of hazzard.

            lean on me.

            by desiunion on Sun Feb 13, 2005 at 09:23:10 PM PDT

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          •  sort of (none / 0)

            I'm from a state that sometimes like to think and act like its Southern and sometimes does not:  Kentucky.  There were plenty of yahoos in high school flying enormous confederate flags behind their trucks.  That's funny since Kentucky never seceeded.

            But I don't think it matters much where I'm from.  I've spent enough time in the actual South, and have talked to enough people who have lived their whole lives there to know that the statement "the flag IS the south" is a ridiculous statement.  I wouldn't have you replace it with anything I'd have you put it in a museum and move on.

            by R Lucian on Sun Feb 13, 2005 at 09:36:57 PM PDT

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            •  I think to African Americans (none / 0)

              The flag symbolizes something more sinister than it might to you. I think it's something that should be left to all citizens to decide, however. But your kidding yourself if you don't think millions of African Americans are offended by it. They may not always say it, but they are.

              Like I said, I don't have anything against the song itself. I just don't like the way it was represented tonight. I thought it was USED in a political and partisan way. Maybe I'm nuts.

              Two other great Southern Rock songs are Freebird (a way better choice) and the Outlaw's Green Grass and High Tides Forever. Both are celebrations of the South and far more appropriate for the occasion.

              I want to read a good story The Tom Joad Society

              by TheChanMan on Sun Feb 13, 2005 at 09:48:25 PM PDT

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          •  Confederate flag in history. (none / 0)

            I'd say two things about this.  One is that the majority of southern arguments about the centrality of the Confederate flag (the battle flag specifically) to their identity and history would seem a lot cleaner had that flag not enjoyed such a resurgence of use during the 1960s as an explicit rejoinder to the Civil Rights movement.  Now, people who've grown up since then with the culture of the flag may not think of it that way, but it's really hard to argue that it stands for anything but racism when you look at the dates on which different states began flying the flag at government buildings.

            Second, my time in Alabama suggests to me that, in fact, the people who are most likely to fly that flag or wear it on their shirts or whatever are actually the most grievous rednecks, and likely to be racists.  That's not just my blue-state judgment, that's something I've heard from my friends who've lived their entire lives in Alabama - in rural, overwhelmingly white counties in Alabama, and not as part of the cultural elite of those counties, either.

            So while I'm not at all arguing that your motivations for missing the flag are problematic, I don't think we can generalize from that, given the evidence in the other direction.

            by MissLaura on Sun Feb 13, 2005 at 10:58:15 PM PDT

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            •  Great entry. (none / 0)

              Also, the south fought under many different "Confederate Flags." The one they champion now was not the last one, nor the one used for the longest amount of time, I believe. It is the one the segregationists used to protest integration, and to support continued racist policies, however. When Georgia changed our state flag, they actually used a more historically acurate "Confedrate Flag" to base the design upon. It supports the south without supporting racism. Because of this knowledge, I know that anybody pushing what we now call the Confedrate Flag, is pushing racism.

              Signature Impaired.

              by gttim on Mon Feb 14, 2005 at 05:49:53 AM PDT

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        •  why this southern white flies the flag (none / 1)

          I wave the sonofabitch in the federal government's face to tell them to get the hell out of my life. That's what it means to the majority of southerners, and that undying foundation of the flag's meaning couldn't be more relevant.

          by retired on Sun Feb 13, 2005 at 11:14:02 PM PDT

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      •  does your south (none / 0)

        include southern blacks? they don't seem all that proud of that aspect of their history. whose heritage, whose history gets to represent the south? one would think there were other things about the south more worth celebrating or holding up as a collective symbol than the stars and bars. as for southern whites having their voices muzzled, you have got to be kidding me; southern whites are constantly held up as the "heartland," repository of all patriotism, the only authentic americans, and have been feted by the right wing as well as the DLC for well over a generation.

        surf putah, your friendly neighborhood central valley samizdat

        by wu ming on Sun Feb 13, 2005 at 10:07:25 PM PDT

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        •  southern white culture. (none / 0)

          It represents the southern white culture. There were mostly bad things about the southern white culture, but there were also good things that white people anglo saxons can take pride in. Since dubya was elected, the southern w. culture is getting its due, but some people in the north or east have this superiority complex over the southern states. Whenever I go to new jersey or new york my cousins make so much fun of rednecks, and tractors, and incest. These are negative stereotypes that are propegated in the north, that just go to show that people need to make a conscious effort to actually study the southern values, before making a quick judgement.

          lean on me.

          by desiunion on Mon Feb 14, 2005 at 09:05:36 AM PDT

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