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  •  "Fundamentally racist" (none / 1)


    But that doesn't mean you don't harbour some fundamentally racist attitudes. Like, that "science" is completely objective and dispassionate, and a truly scientific study that found Blacks were, in some respect, inferior to Whites (or vice versa), would simply be objective reporting of pure data.

    How exactly is that a "fundamentally racist attitude"?  Does that mean that science in and of itself, and thus the vast majority of practical human knowledge, is racist?

    Yes, I do believe in science.  I think it highly unlikely that a truly scientific study would find any real differences between blacks and whites, but I'm not going to dismiss the question because of that.  As I said, I think such a study would, if anything, be useful to refute racists, as the results would show much of their bigotry to be unfounded.

    And if such a study were truly objective and truly showed significant racial differences, then I'm sorry to say, but so be it (as I said I find such results quite unlikely, but theoretically possible).  I'm willing to accept science, even if it tells me something I don't like.  And if that makes me "fundamentally racist", so be it as well.

    There is no such thing as "truly an open and intellectual/rational inquiry"--that's not science, it's not actually anything. Every inquiry begins with a question or a hypothesis, and the question reflects a built-in bias. So "controversial" questions get asked because someone has a hypothesis about the answer. And, take it from me, someone who is absolutely convinced that race is NOT an important determining factor tends not to ask questions about whether it is.

    Okay, first off I don't think that every hypothesis is a leading or slanted question.  I will agree that many have asked "controversial" questions because they have an agenda, but as I said below in response to ari, that doesn't condemn the process.  People misusing a tool doesn't mean the tool is broken.

    And as for the latter bit, no, I'm afraid I won't "take it from you" - you seem to be trying to deflect the question at this point with a wee bit of bravado.  I will ask questions, even controversial ones, and I know I'm not alone.  I'm not asking them because I have an agenda, I'm not asking them because I'm "fundamentally racist" or because I otherwise think race makes some difference and am attempting to prove it - quite the opposite, in fact.  But I don't think it's proper for science to shy away from these questions just because they're not politically correct.  As I've said, science should be beholden to rationality, nothing more and nothing less.

    Asking the question is racist. The data are still just data, but the decision to collect them and interpret them is neither "neutral" nor free from bias. And even the method with which the data are collected may be tainted. Read the history of Stanford-Binet IQ tests and why they are regarded by many as "slanted".

    Asking the question is just asking the question.  I fail to see how it is inherently racist: I agree that it has been used in a racist manner in the past, but again, that was a problem with those who asked the question, and not the question or science itself.

    I agree that there is plenty of potential for bias, which is all the more reason why this should be asked in a open manner.  I have faith in humanity and in the scientific process, and I believe that people can reach the just conclusion on this topic, and many others.  I don't believe we should shy away from it just because it rubs folks the wrong way, or because it was misused in the past.

    I would hope that you are simply naive, but I think it unlikely. Everyone I have ever known who has made your arguments has been prejudiced on some level (or at least held captive by somewhat racist social norms), but couldn't acknolwedge it. There's hope though.

    Again a bit of bravado.  You know, I'm getting a little sick of being called racist for defending the scientific method.  Please, if you really feel I'm this awful racist person, make your accusations specific.  Tell me precisely how I am bigoted.

    As far as I can tell, I am merely defending the scientific method.  If you're willing to condemn science as racist, then I guess I'll just have to go down with the ship.  At least I'll be in good company.

    •  Addendum (none / 0)

      Re: telling me how I'm racist - please tell me both how precisely I am bigoted, and who I am bigoted against.  Thanks.
    •  Mea culpa and more... (4.00 / 2)

      First, my writing was extremely sloppy at times. I am to blame. Your beliefs about scietific endeavours are, of course, not racist. And when I said "fundamentally racist" I should perhaps have said "incipiently racist" and then provided a direct link to my later arguments.

      And, no, I don't know you and probably deserve lashing with a wet noodle for suggesting that you are a racist. However, I challenge you to name me one, just one, scientifc question (in a sociological or psychological context) that is absolutely free from any beliefs about the possible answers.

      It's not possible, because we are motivated to ask questions by our own proclivities, experience and rational apparatus. "Absolute freedom" is nothingness, because when there is absolutely no reason to do or think anything, all things become equally likely. The fact that we never experience this sort of absolute freedom is because there are built in biases. It is rather like the philosophical problem of Buridan's ass.

      But I'll take my lumps because they're deserved. Not, however, without insisting that scientists recognize that all inquiry starts with a less-than-free proposition.

      -8.38, -4.97 "...there is nothing either good or bad, but thinking makes it so." Hamlet, Act II, Scene ii.

      by thingamabob on Mon Feb 21, 2005 at 08:59:32 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  Thanks (none / 1)

        And don't worry to much about the lumps: your apology/clarification re: "racist" was more than adequate.

        I certainly agree that any and all scientific questions can and will be interpreted and affected and likewise affect the beliefs and actions of human beings.  In reality, that's much of the purpose of science (that and making technology, I suppose).  And that, I suppose, is why I feel all the stronger that the scientific method should be open and fearless, as it were - fearless of politics, fearless of religion, fearless of anything and everything.  Peer review is critical, of course, but it should all be done within the framework of science itself.  And I really do have faith that humanity (all genders, races, creeds, and whatever else included) has the capability to think rationally and use science to find what is right, true, and even just (plus build cool new hovercars or something, heh).

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