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  •  The problem I have with that is (none / 0)

    ...that kind of stance is contrary to progressive and liberal thought, isn't it? I think it is.

    What we do does affect other people. How much 'responsibility' you attatch to it, I think, depends on how close those people are, and your degree of culpability. Your example is extreme, yes. However--and, remember, my thoughts on suicide in general--if I beat and ridicule my daughters, and one of them kills herself, am I partially responsible? You bet your ass.

    Additionally, if I kill myself and it irreperably screws up my daughters, am I partially responsible? Again, damn straight I am.

    If I thought I could blithely trip through life without thinking about what other people think of my actions, I'd be an Ayn Rand Libertarian, not a Progressive.

    Bruce is still God, but Michael Phelps is moving up the rankings.

    by ChurchofBruce on Mon Feb 21, 2005 at 12:26:46 PM PDT

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    •  Not a good example (none / 0)

      Beating your daughters would, of course, fall into the category of physically hurting someone else.  Obviously you don't have the freedom to hurt other people.

      I'm not saying that you shouldn't worry about what people think about your actions. But if your opposition to suicide boils down to "you'd hurt people emotionally," then you have to start thinking about all the things you do during the average day that people might get upset about, and asking yourself if you should do something or not based on what someone else will think of it.  I don't think that's an honest way to live your life; I just choose to carry the principle through all it's implications.

      All you can do in life is what's right by you; trying to live by other people's definitions of right and wrong is impossible.

      ...that kind of stance is contrary to progressive and liberal thought, isn't it? I think it is.

      Whatever that means.

      I think they all think that their guy will do a better job, but I think they make dishonest arguments. In their eyes, the ends justify the means. -Jon Stewart

      by Slade on Tue Feb 22, 2005 at 12:34:49 AM PDT

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      •  Well, there's degrees (none / 0)

        Not only is there degrees of emotional hurt, there's degrees in the relationships to who you hurt.

        I absolutely do try to live my life, as much as possible, by the Golden Rule. Now, nobody's perfect, and I'm as far from perfect as you can get :-), but I do try.

        However, even in trying, there's degrees. There's minor emotional hurts, and major ones. There's a person I pass on the streen once a month--and then there's my daughters. I do try to avoid visiting minor emotional hurts on anyone, if I can avoid it--but inflicting major emotional hurts on my daughters is a big fat huge no-no.  

        So, my opposition to suicide isn't that "I'd hurt people emotionally." That's not nearly strong enough. It's that "I'd devastate people who are precious to me." This is not an 'emotional hurt', it's a big fat HUGE emotional hurt and it most affects those closest to you.

        Bruce is still God, but Michael Phelps is moving up the rankings.

        by ChurchofBruce on Tue Feb 22, 2005 at 05:15:28 AM PDT

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