Daily Kos

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  •  don't think so... (4.00 / 13)


    In my oppinion a faulty line of argumentation. While the USA surely has its faults, like every country, and its current policy is uhm well, maybe into the wrong direction,

    please...  don't insult people's intelligence here.  
    BushCo is attempting a wholesale makeover of US society...

    • cultural = religious fundamentalism
    • undermining middle class <> handing power to corp. interests
    • eradicating enviro protection (eg. enabling wholesale pollution/rape of resources)
    • media takeover
    • utter dishonesty on virtuall every public policy
    • abandoning any pretense of fiscal responsability in lieu of indeological interests

    Making light of such stuff doesn't particularly sit well with me.  


    the current wave of anti-americanism in Europe cannot soley be explained by it. Especially when realizing that Europe is no better.

    Beg to differ: allowing for truth in your proffered accessments of Euro leaders, their scope (aside from Italy) is not close to Bush's white house.  Europe does have enviro priorities and acts on them.  They've been far more responsable w/finance... going in 2 opposite directions, actually.  

    On most important issues, euro governments have responded to sentiments of their larger public.  In US, not only just the opposite, but massive disinformation campaigns on multiple fronts attempting to BS the public into massively self-destructive policies.

    Sorry man, I can't agree w/you.    


    I stick to the scapegoat theory, combined with some sort of inferiority complex. Like it or not, but the blame game is truly out of proportions here.

    Again, can't agree.  

    The divide has grown exponentially since W's 2k inauguration.  Prior, the fissures were minor and not strewn with distrust as they now are.  I'd also point out these sentiments are not uniquely European: they are shared by +-51m USAsians, Oz, most of So/Central American now, and increasingly Asia.

    That the Blue Planet, a mere 4 years after BushCo invaded, is now far more dangerous and deadly place than before is not a product of Europe's overblown rhetoric.  Whatever the problems on your side of the pond, the epicenter driving discontent emanates from Wa DC... period.  

     

    "My theory of evolution is that Darwin was adopted." -- Steven Wright

    by jdmckay on Sun Mar 06, 2005 at 03:44:41 PM PDT

    [ Parent ]

    •  Well (4.00 / 3)

      The Kyoto protocol is a perfect example of what I mean. While Europe talks about environmentalism, they don't walk the walk, please once look into France's role with global water privatization:

      • "The world of privatized water is overwhelmingly dominated by two French transnationals. Suez Lyonnaise des Eaux (which built the Suez Canal and had 1999 profits of $1.5 billion on sales of $32 billion) and Vivendi SA are referred to as the General Motors and Ford Motor Company of the water world. Both are ranked among the 100 largest corporations in the world by the Global Fortune 500. Between them they own, or have controlling interests in, water companies in over 120 countries on five continents, and distribute water to almost 100 million people in the world."

      • "Adding to this intense pollution is the sewage waste of five million customers of the privatized water company Aguas Argentinas, which is dumped directly into the river each day without treatment. Three kilometers upstream Aguas Argentinas treats the very same water for use by the same population."

      • 'The deal made between Argentina's water authority and a consortium that includes the Suez group from France, the largest private water company in the world, and Spain's Aguas de Barcelona, in May 1993, established a new private entity, named Aguas Argentinas, with the help of the World Bank which also bought a small stake in the consortium. According to a study by Dr. Malpartida's Ecology and Environment Foundation, the new company was "the biggest transfer of a water service and watershed into private control in the world" encompassing a region with over 10 million inhabitants.'

      Or about human rights, the way Europe treats its refugees is shameful:

      • "Italy, which is one of the founding countries of the European Community, deliberately violated the Geneva Refugee Convention. The Italian airlift mass deportations bring damage not only to the foundations of international refugee protection but also to the European protection of human rights. Without examination of their flight reasons, more than 1.100 persons were flown out to Tripoli."

      • "According to the Italian TV channel SkyTG 24, hundreds of persons deported from Lampedusa were simply transferred to the desert near Libya's Southern border."

      • "PRO ASYL reminds of the fate of eighteen refugees who in September of 2004 were deported to Libya's common border with Niger by the Libyan regime. They were exposed to the desert and died with thirst. "

      • "Germany and Italy are pressing ahead with plans for setting up holding centers in North Africa for would-be immigrants to the European Union"

      by rukkus on Sun Mar 06, 2005 at 04:23:56 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  you are being (4.00 / 5)

        way to all-or-nothing here: Kyoto was at least signed by the Europeans, and Kyoto is not about global water resources and cannot be expected to address every issue that arises in this hypercapitalist world. Don't conflate issues: even Blair said that Kyoto was only a first small step.

        Environmentalism by the way should be the one thing that, if framed correctly, everyone can agree on at least foundationally. The problem is that environmemntalism is only as good as the environemental LAWS.

        So I think Kyoto is actually an indication not of how Europe is somehow paying lip-service to environmentalism, but of how the Bush adminsitraion is paying lip service to environmentalism.

        Rome was not built in a day, and continuing to set up straw men about the ills of certain European multinationals does not really address the issue at hand: Bush is a world disaster, and even nonpolitical and center-right Europeans now realize this.    

        by gnat on Sun Mar 06, 2005 at 04:31:31 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  I also want to add (4.00 / 2)

          that there is in Europe at least some respect for the status of international laws (Geneva convention, etc) and accords that of course Bush is totally against. America wants to have it cake and eat it too: while the Germans are tryin Rumsfeld for war crimes, Bush is caliming that he has international democracy's best interests at heart. Could it be that Europeans, having lived through fascism, have noses better attuned to it now?

          I agree that the EU is hardly a utopia of progressive ideals, but a little perspective here would help.

          by gnat on Sun Mar 06, 2005 at 04:36:55 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

        •  kyoto (none / 0)

          Yes water resources is a part of environtalism, since dumping your 'xxxxx' into argentinian rivers or the victoria lake isn't exactly the cleanest way of sanitation in my oppinion. Also sending your biggest engineering companies to the Yangtze and the subsequent flooding of thousands of villages isn't exactly true environmental policy either (ABB etc.). Yes Bush is a world disaster, but European indifference and inaction is too.

          by rukkus on Sun Mar 06, 2005 at 04:42:39 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  more straw men (none / 1)

            are you against the Kyoto accord b/c it fails to address every environemntal ill in the world?

            If we take your attitude to an extreme than it would be to do nothing at all.

            Kyoto is a good thing, and the U.S. should have signed it and under Kerry it would have been signed.

            Does Kyoto save the world? Of course not, but it's a step.

            by gnat on Sun Mar 06, 2005 at 04:46:55 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  lol (none / 0)

              no I'm not against kyoto, heck, you misunderstand me. Kyoto IS a good thing, but current BIG European governments are doing everything they can to 'ignore' it. That's why I said my hope lies with the smaller nations, because the current BIG nations are doing everything they can to promote their nation's companies and their interests. It's actions like Schroeder's attempt to sell a nuke reactor to China, even tho his party is against nuclear energy. Etc...

              by rukkus on Sun Mar 06, 2005 at 05:00:39 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

      •  hmmm... (none / 1)

        Hi:

        1st, water privatization right up there on top of my list of corp. evil.  I'm not familiar w/French/Spanish projects you list.  Do you have links on this stuff?  If it's as you say (I don't doubt you), I'd have to adjust some opinions I have.  It would, however, have to be on very large scale to match what BushCo doing in this arena... eg. it's one thing for heartless multi-nationals to exploit to full extent, and quite another to have these efforts fully supported/enabled/protected by a federal government, as is case here (US) now.  Implementation of Nafta: Chpt 11, f:ex.  And BushCo holding municipalities hostage to federal funds by demanding privatization of water projects in many localities.  Much more...

        Re Human rights and your Italy citations... all true.  I'd point out that these guys (Berlusconi & co.) are more than counterbalanced by EU, however.  And in larger arena of human rights, no comparison between EU as whole in so far as per/capita $$ to charity/disaster/human need (etc.) as opposed to US under Bush... both as matters of federal policy and citizen generosity, US far stingier.  

        Beyond that, the growing selfishness of US charactar (I've lived here all my life) is perhaps most frightening aspect of all this.  That so many here now respond to ameoba level stimulation of contrived media is taking (taken?) root.  It's somewhere beyond bizarre.

        Digsby has been hitting on all cylinders last couple of days, aptly describing all this much better than I.

        In any event, respectfully I disagree w/your intial premise: EU has long ways to go before approaching malfeasance level of BushCo.  

        "My theory of evolution is that Darwin was adopted." -- Steven Wright

        by jdmckay on Sun Mar 06, 2005 at 05:39:05 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  some links (none / 1)

          I'll try to provide some more links if I find the time, in the meantime there are some good books by Vandana Shiva.

          On the refugee issue, I tend to disagree, since the Schengen/Dublin/Amsterdam treaties really try to 'get rid of refugees' by all means possible.

          •  The principle that refugees and asylum seekers should be dealt with in the first 'safe country' they have entered and not be allowed to claim asylum in another 'safe country' once their case has been dismissed.

          •  The concept that airline carriers will incur a liability if they allow passengers on their planes from outside of Europe who do not care adequate documentation.

          •  The co-ordination of immigration information by the police forces and Home Offices of Europe.

          The war on refugees is not only waged by Italy, but also by ie. Spain, Portugal, France, etc. Basically all countries with access to the mediterrean sea. The Schengen/Dublin treaties mainly places the burden of taking care of refugees on border countries. Those countries in return do everything they can to STOP the influx.

          A pdf on it can be found here

          by rukkus on Sun Mar 06, 2005 at 05:56:36 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  Thanks (none / 0)

            for links!!!  I'll dig though 'em.  "Water Page" in particular (surprised I never saw it).

            re: refugee issue, I don't think I mentioned it. :)
            Anyway, I made my points and leave it there.

            Suggestion: if you do dig for more on line water info, maybe consider posting a diary.  I don't tend to keep these conversations in focus for long (so many hours in a day), and may miss it.  Beyond that, it's something people should know about IMO.

            Ok... cheers!

            "My theory of evolution is that Darwin was adopted." -- Steven Wright

            by jdmckay on Sun Mar 06, 2005 at 06:48:20 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

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