Daily Kos

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  •  you are being (4.00 / 5)

    way to all-or-nothing here: Kyoto was at least signed by the Europeans, and Kyoto is not about global water resources and cannot be expected to address every issue that arises in this hypercapitalist world. Don't conflate issues: even Blair said that Kyoto was only a first small step.

    Environmentalism by the way should be the one thing that, if framed correctly, everyone can agree on at least foundationally. The problem is that environmemntalism is only as good as the environemental LAWS.

    So I think Kyoto is actually an indication not of how Europe is somehow paying lip-service to environmentalism, but of how the Bush adminsitraion is paying lip service to environmentalism.

    Rome was not built in a day, and continuing to set up straw men about the ills of certain European multinationals does not really address the issue at hand: Bush is a world disaster, and even nonpolitical and center-right Europeans now realize this.    

    by gnat on Sun Mar 06, 2005 at 04:31:31 PM PDT

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    •  I also want to add (4.00 / 2)

      that there is in Europe at least some respect for the status of international laws (Geneva convention, etc) and accords that of course Bush is totally against. America wants to have it cake and eat it too: while the Germans are tryin Rumsfeld for war crimes, Bush is caliming that he has international democracy's best interests at heart. Could it be that Europeans, having lived through fascism, have noses better attuned to it now?

      I agree that the EU is hardly a utopia of progressive ideals, but a little perspective here would help.

      by gnat on Sun Mar 06, 2005 at 04:36:55 PM PDT

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    •  kyoto (none / 0)

      Yes water resources is a part of environtalism, since dumping your 'xxxxx' into argentinian rivers or the victoria lake isn't exactly the cleanest way of sanitation in my oppinion. Also sending your biggest engineering companies to the Yangtze and the subsequent flooding of thousands of villages isn't exactly true environmental policy either (ABB etc.). Yes Bush is a world disaster, but European indifference and inaction is too.

      by rukkus on Sun Mar 06, 2005 at 04:42:39 PM PDT

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      •  more straw men (none / 1)

        are you against the Kyoto accord b/c it fails to address every environemntal ill in the world?

        If we take your attitude to an extreme than it would be to do nothing at all.

        Kyoto is a good thing, and the U.S. should have signed it and under Kerry it would have been signed.

        Does Kyoto save the world? Of course not, but it's a step.

        by gnat on Sun Mar 06, 2005 at 04:46:55 PM PDT

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        •  lol (none / 0)

          no I'm not against kyoto, heck, you misunderstand me. Kyoto IS a good thing, but current BIG European governments are doing everything they can to 'ignore' it. That's why I said my hope lies with the smaller nations, because the current BIG nations are doing everything they can to promote their nation's companies and their interests. It's actions like Schroeder's attempt to sell a nuke reactor to China, even tho his party is against nuclear energy. Etc...

          by rukkus on Sun Mar 06, 2005 at 05:00:39 PM PDT

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