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  •  Osama is our creation (4.00 / 2)

    Sorry, but he is.

    We, along with the Saudis, funded the rise in Islamic extremism. And we looked the other way when we knew it was getting bad.

    Because they may have been crazy A-rabs, but at least they weren't Commies.

    Not such a good choice, in retrospect.

    Not to mention that our addiction to oil is the reason why anyone in the Middle East has the funds to devise and execute an attack such as 9/11.

    But you probably don't want to hear that, either.

    •  Geezus.. (none / 0)

      under that argument then we are pretty much responsible for the death of millions of Polish Jews becuase Hitler refined the U.S. invention of the airplane to overrun Poland in 1938... meanwhile we looked the other way while it got bad...

      As for  
      Replying To:

         Osama is our creation (none / 0)

      Sorry, but he is.
      We, along with the Saudis, funded the rise in Islamic extremism. And we looked the other way when we knew it was getting bad.

      Because they may have been crazy A-rabs, but at least they weren't Commies.

      Not such a good choice, in retrospect.

      Not to mention that our addiction to oil is the reason why anyone in the Middle East has the funds to devise and execute an attack such as 9/11.

      But you probably don't want to hear that, either.

      1. Thanks for the personal attack.. since I don't agree with your assesment of U.S. culpability in 9/11 I must drive an Escalade - while towing Hummer no doubt... BTW - I commute 1 hour each way on my BICYCLE to work.. so beat that.

      2. You are absolutely right about oil dependence... but still doesn't make us responsible.. it may make us responsible for creating the opportunity.. but that's not the same thing.  Just becuase I leave the doors to my house unlocked, does not give a theif the right to steal my stuff... nor does it make me "partially" responsible for him doing so..  

       

      "Publicity is justly commended as a remedy for social and industrial diseases. Sunlight is said to be the best of disinfectants" Justice Louis Brandeis

      by mlangner on Wed Apr 27, 2005 at 10:06:02 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  I apologize for the tone (none / 1)

        You're right. That was a little nasty.

        The "airplane" and the "doors unlocked" arguments are not analagous to what happened in the Middle East. It is not the same as directly funding and arming the people that turned around and attacked us.

        I think we're just defining the word "responsible" differently.

        I believe that our oil dependence in some way DOES make us responsible. I believe that our choices in funding extreme the extreme Islamic movement in the late seventies and eighties makes us responsible in some way for what happened.

        You call it something different. Responsible for creating the opportunity. Maybe that's a better way of putting it.

        But we must learn from 9/11. We must understand that our actions have consequences.

        That is what I am most trying to say.

        I applaude you, by the way, for biking to work. I am also a cyclist. We probably agree on much more than my prior choice of words makes it seem. Again, that was wrong.

        •  Thanks.. BTW... (none / 0)

          I bike to work because I like it and its the fiscally responsible thing to do.. not out of any larger purpose.. I really like my car and enjoy driving - if it didn't cost $25 a day to drive to work I probably wouldn't bike as much (though its hard to argue with the health benefits).. When I can buy an electric car, that is as fun to drive as my current car, at a similar price, that I can recharge for free off of solar/wind energy - and figure out a way to not pay for tolls and parking, then I am right back in the car...

          Along the same lines, I am a conservationlist, not because I care about trees... because I don't like subsidies to polluters, and/or the costs of upsetting the natural balance of the environment...

          As for the topic at hand:

          Your are right, our actions do have consequences.. If I screw up my kids, am I responsible in part for what they do? Of course, but it doesn't do anyone any good, for my Father to point out, or better yet announce to the world, that I screwed up my kids... either for me or the kids, nor does it do anything to fix the situation.

          The world is a complex place, and its not easy to make good decisions even if you have only the most altruistic motives at heart - especially as those decisions play out over the course of a few decades and the chairs get rearranged on the decks...  

          Have we taken actions that, in retrospect, helped create the environment were Al Queda could grow - sure.  Were those actions taken maliciously or knowingly with the intent of creating, or even ignoring, the fact that those organizations would be created, of course not.  And that is where I think the rub is with regards to this issue...  Say what you want about former governments, but I don't believe (with the exception of the current) that they have acted against our self interest - they did what they thought was right given what we knew at the time.

          Hindsight is a dangerous thing, and blaming the U.S. for the rise of Al Queda - and therefore 9/11 - is easy to do with its benefit - and its really not correct, nor productive at all - especially for our side.. and that's my point.

          "Publicity is justly commended as a remedy for social and industrial diseases. Sunlight is said to be the best of disinfectants" Justice Louis Brandeis

          by mlangner on Wed Apr 27, 2005 at 11:12:06 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

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