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  •  A very thoughtful response (4.00 / 4)

    The question of what rights are fundamental or universal has been given centuries of attention.  The US Constitution, the French Declaration of the Rights of Man, the UN Universal Declaration of Human Rights... these are all attempts to answer that question.  

    The Constitution is what determines the question in our country.  And the Constitution gives the clear presumption to be in favor of individual rights, unless a compelling social interest is engaged in abridging them.  

    It is difficult to imagine any compelling social interest in banning abortion or gay marriage without appeal to religious beliefs.  This appeal is impermissible in our Constitutional framework.  Any other argument I've heard on these questions amounts to a camouflage of a religious bias.

    Marriage is a civil matter.  If it were not, it wouldn't have the myriad legal ramifications it does.  Any sort of civil unions that would substitute for marriage would have to carry all the ramifications of marriage for equality to be satisfied.  You can rename civil marriage, or you can rename religious marriage (as some have done with "covenant marriage"), but what's in the law is what counts.

    Hanoi didn't break John McCain, but Washington did.

    by Dallasdoc on Mon Jun 13, 2005 at 02:48:36 PM PDT

    [ Parent ]

    •  And, yours as well ... (none / 0)

      DallasDoc ... very much like your thoughts that you place into this ... with one problem area ...

      Remember -- trying to avoid flame (not necessarily from you) -- that I am a LONG time NARAL supporter, strongly believe that women should have the right to choose, majority of my protest marches have been related to choice issues, and that I will not accept my daughters growing up in a society that will not enable them to have that choice -- but I think that I have to take issue with part of your comment:

      "It is difficult to imagine any compelling social interest in banning abortion or gay marriage without appeal to religious beliefs.  This appeal is impermissible in our Constitutional framework.  Any other argument I've heard on these questions amounts to a camouflage of a religious bias."

      The questions re choice that do not -- necessarily -- get into "religion" have to do with many of the 'limitation' questions and proposals.  Sadly, too many of those involved in pushing for limits are really driven by veiled efforts to stop choice, but are the following basically religious or other questions:

      •  Is there a medical point in terms of fetus survival / viability (outside the womb) where it becomes legitimate for a society to place 'fetus' rights on the table?  If "abortion" were truly unlimited, then there would be no legitimacy to any form of restriction on abortion based on trimesters.  (By the way, again, not arguing that medically necessary / appropriate 'late-term' abortions should be stopped / outlawed.)

      •  Is there no role for societal oversight / involvement in minors' medical decisions?

      While I (and others) on this might believe in quite expansive definition of 'choice' on these and other issues, these are not necessarily "religion" based issues.  Second, for example, is a legitimate issue of what is the extent of parental and/or minors' rights in the society.  While "religion" might play a role in this, as well, defining minors' rights (whether to alcohol, tobacco, going to school, etc ..) are part of a fundamental defining of societal issues that go well beyond religion.

      And, as your note suggests, my poorly articulated concept of 'civil union' does split hairs but ... so what.  Grant "victory" to those who have religious issues re "marriage" to retain ownership of the term while dealing practically with the basic core legal issues of "rights" granted by the state under the term marriage. ...

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