Daily Kos

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  •  THANK YOU!!!!!!! (4.00 / 5)

     You're name is exactly what I feel. I have been walking around in a depressive daze since I read Koz' post.

     If abortion is horrible, then those who have one are horrible as well. Never mind the reasons, a pregnant woman is only a good girl if she brings the child to term.

     I personally know two people who had abortions at age 13 and 14, respectively. Their abortions were not horrible. They were the right choice for them. The girls got to grow and learn and became mothers when they were ready. They made their choices in the 70s, before the anti-abortionists had changed the climate. They were not ashamed of what they did, then. Hopefully not now. They shouldn't be.

     I've always been cautiously optimistic about the progressive community and their support for women in the work place, in the bedroom, in the world. The last couple of weeks have knocked that out of me. I know believe that the "pro-life" fundies have won the battle and the war. Women are either good incubators who don't make a horrible choice--or they are bad. Fuck!

    Edwards Democrat voting for Obama.

    by high uintas on Mon Jun 13, 2005 at 02:51:20 PM PDT

    [ Parent ]

    •  I know a girl (4.00 / 4)

      whose family forced her to carry her pregnancy to term when she was fourteen, and now she's barely employable with a three year old, and homeless, and her family doesn't give a rat's ass.

      Please: If men cared about women's rights, they'd take responsibility for birth control, but they always seem to see it as the woman's problem. I get so pissed off when I hear men engaging in "pro-life" rhetoric I really start hating them. I hate the male doctor who told me sterilization went against god's will. I hate the sexual harrassment and anger of men when I don't want to have sex with them - that they have the gall to think sex is their right, when they don't even know me.

      by bluebird of happiness on Mon Jun 13, 2005 at 03:09:54 PM PDT

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      •  Pass a law (none / 1)

        ... that requires the genetic father to support their child until age 18 with no exit and abortion will be embraced by these chumps.

        The courts would have to have unmitigated gall to force only women to bear the burden of a man's sweet nothings.  Equal treatment under the law would necessitate proportionate male sacrifice.

        "The survival value of intelligence is that it allows us to extinct a bad idea, before the idea extincts us." -- Karl Popper

        by eyeswideopen on Mon Jun 13, 2005 at 07:53:40 PM PDT

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        •  Every state already has such laws (none / 0)

          nt

          by digdugboy on Mon Jun 13, 2005 at 10:44:56 PM PDT

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          •  I don't think so. (none / 0)

            We once knew a guy who used to brag about having 6 illegitimate kids that he did not support.  He was against abortion rights for women.  There is a long history of males seeking to propagate themselves in the highest possible numbers.  It's an animal thing.

            If men knew they would be required to sacrifice proportionately financially, the attitude regarding abortion would change, and they would see it as protecting not only the life of the woman but also that of the man.  The burden must be shared equally.

            We need to move to a post-Darwinian era where quality rather than quantity is intentionally chosen.

            "The survival value of intelligence is that it allows us to extinct a bad idea, before the idea extincts us." -- Karl Popper

            by eyeswideopen on Tue Jun 14, 2005 at 06:36:19 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  that doesn't mean he wasn't flouting the law (none / 0)

              what state? I'd be willing to do the research on the laws ... getting the guy prosecuted would be another problem, tho

              Obesa cantavit

              by wystler on Mon Jun 20, 2005 at 09:43:12 PM PDT

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              •  The guy died recently, (none / 0)

                ...suddenly of a heart attack, but that doesn't mean you shouldn't do some research.  I'd sure be interested in knowing if there are laws that bind the biological father to support the mother and child -- it's only relatively recently that we could establish paternity to a very high degree of certainty.

                "The survival value of intelligence is that it allows us to extinct a bad idea, before the idea extincts us." -- Karl Popper

                by eyeswideopen on Tue Jun 21, 2005 at 09:39:15 PM PDT

                [ Parent ]

    •  postscript of sorts (4.00 / 13)

      No, they haven't won the war, not yet anyway.

      But it's going to take a lot of women speaking about their experiences- outting themselves- often at high personal risks, (and don't underestimate those risks) and placing value judgements on those experiences. Back to the T-shirt (as I commented below), "I had an abortion" isn't enough, that merely marks you as a member of class of women. We're going to need to talk about the realities of our experienes, and how no, abortion is not horrible- for many of women it has been damn good.

      Further, we're going to have to gage who we're talking to. We're going to need to explain to those who are 'educatable', and stop wasting time trying to please those who aren't. Some people are not going to be persuaded no matter what the words. the only answer for them is get your damn boot off my neck- or uterus as the case may be.

      As for everone else, 'friends' need to stop telling us what we've done is varrying versions of bad and how much they wish the 'issue', (and thus we ourselves), would just go away so they can get back to (vainly) trying to win the hearts and minds of those who will not be wooed.

      What provoked this diary was yet another attempt at marketing issues that tramples women's realities- the realities of our lives.

      I'm tired of having to explain this over and over to 'progressives', 'liberals' 'democrats' and other assorted and assundry 'allies'. Either we have autonomy or we don't.

      Either we own our own bodies- or someone else does. And if that 'someone else' does, be it the state, churches, or just plain old abusive boyfriends, what are the consequences to individual women?

      Further, if we can be (to use the relgious language referenced above in my diary) 'enslaved' in these ways, what are the implications for others? What kind of society does that create, and what are the implications for those  'progressives', 'liberals' 'democrats' and other assorted and assundry 'allies'?

      No, it not some 'war' we choose. A friend in the abortion fiend refers to us as 'relectant warriors'. This came to us, and is being waged on our very bodies.

      When abortion, and therefore women who have abortions are labeled horrible by alledged 'friends' they become just another form of attack, on our most basic autonomy- our 'self rule'. Anyone who thinks that's not fair game for criticism should take a good long look in a mirror.

      barf.org : a resource for all who work to monitor and counter the Biblical America movement.

      by stormcoming on Mon Jun 13, 2005 at 03:14:33 PM PDT

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      •  Reality (4.00 / 8)

        For a good thirty years or more, each month, a woman faces the fact that she is either pregnant or not pregnant.  

        You bleed or you don't bleed.

        Or you worry that you haven't bled.

        Or you hope/pray that you won't bleed.

        Even if you aren't having sex, you are reminded monthly that you are not pregnant.

        It is a normal part of our lives.  

        How often do men think about pregnancy? How regularly do men think of pregnancy?

        Pregnancy, birth control, and abortion are not issues that we can have the luxury of waxing philosophic about and making grand pronouncements for the masses.

        We do not have the luxury of deciding if abortion can be a "winning strategy" or if the word "abortion" should be considered "horrible" and swept under the carpet.

        It's all too real for us.

        Thanks, stormcoming, for pointing this out.

        IMPEACH

        by Maria in Pgh on Mon Jun 13, 2005 at 06:10:31 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

      •  Autonomy IS (4.00 / 4)

        a core value that, on my list, comes before privacy.
        You wrote (and I listed them reversed):
            When abortion, and therefore women who have abortions are labeled horrible by alleged 'friends' they become just another form of attack, on our most basic autonomy- our 'self rule'.
            We're going to need to talk about the realities of our experienes, and how no, abortion is not horrible- for many of women it has been damn good.

        I have always believed that women (and men) who feel  this way, should stand up and be bravely direct as you have been with this commentary. It is good for a woman who needs/wants/has to get an abortion that she be supported in HER decision WITHOUT judgement since IT IS HER BODY and not some pod somewhere in lala land that provides the environment in which the zygote/embryo/fetus develops.  I have witnessed much relief and sometimes joy on the faces of women of different ages I helped as clinic escort or when providing transportation to and from an abortion clinic.  I know women who admitted to being happy that they had an abortion when the time for a child was not right.

        No, abortion is not a "horrible" thing.  For me, it is lifesaving:  my own life, since I decided that if I am in a situation in which I cannot terminate an unwanted pregnancy, I would by any means not continue the pregnancy. Least one thinks that is extreme, remember that the women who today, in many parts of the world, get back-alley abortions KNOW that the procedure, by the very dire conditions in which it is performed, can lead to their own deaths.  They knowingly choose a possibility of death over an unwanted pregnancy.

        Thank you for an excellent diary.

        The time has come for religions made by men for men about men to stay out of women's lives.

        by Ayanora on Mon Jun 13, 2005 at 06:15:03 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

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