Daily Kos

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  •  Tip Jar (3.98 / 178)

    n/t

    barf.org : a resource for all who work to monitor and counter the Biblical America movement.

    by stormcoming on Mon Jun 13, 2005 at 05:39:51 AM PDT

    [ Parent ]

    •  THANK YOU!!!!!!! (4.00 / 5)

       You're name is exactly what I feel. I have been walking around in a depressive daze since I read Koz' post.

       If abortion is horrible, then those who have one are horrible as well. Never mind the reasons, a pregnant woman is only a good girl if she brings the child to term.

       I personally know two people who had abortions at age 13 and 14, respectively. Their abortions were not horrible. They were the right choice for them. The girls got to grow and learn and became mothers when they were ready. They made their choices in the 70s, before the anti-abortionists had changed the climate. They were not ashamed of what they did, then. Hopefully not now. They shouldn't be.

       I've always been cautiously optimistic about the progressive community and their support for women in the work place, in the bedroom, in the world. The last couple of weeks have knocked that out of me. I know believe that the "pro-life" fundies have won the battle and the war. Women are either good incubators who don't make a horrible choice--or they are bad. Fuck!

      Edwards Democrat voting for Obama.

      by high uintas on Mon Jun 13, 2005 at 02:51:20 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  I know a girl (4.00 / 4)

        whose family forced her to carry her pregnancy to term when she was fourteen, and now she's barely employable with a three year old, and homeless, and her family doesn't give a rat's ass.

        Please: If men cared about women's rights, they'd take responsibility for birth control, but they always seem to see it as the woman's problem. I get so pissed off when I hear men engaging in "pro-life" rhetoric I really start hating them. I hate the male doctor who told me sterilization went against god's will. I hate the sexual harrassment and anger of men when I don't want to have sex with them - that they have the gall to think sex is their right, when they don't even know me.

        •  Pass a law (none / 1)

          ... that requires the genetic father to support their child until age 18 with no exit and abortion will be embraced by these chumps.

          The courts would have to have unmitigated gall to force only women to bear the burden of a man's sweet nothings.  Equal treatment under the law would necessitate proportionate male sacrifice.

          "The survival value of intelligence is that it allows us to extinct a bad idea, before the idea extincts us." -- Karl Popper

          by eyeswideopen on Mon Jun 13, 2005 at 07:53:40 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  Every state already has such laws (none / 0)

            nt
            •  I don't think so. (none / 0)

              We once knew a guy who used to brag about having 6 illegitimate kids that he did not support.  He was against abortion rights for women.  There is a long history of males seeking to propagate themselves in the highest possible numbers.  It's an animal thing.

              If men knew they would be required to sacrifice proportionately financially, the attitude regarding abortion would change, and they would see it as protecting not only the life of the woman but also that of the man.  The burden must be shared equally.

              We need to move to a post-Darwinian era where quality rather than quantity is intentionally chosen.

              "The survival value of intelligence is that it allows us to extinct a bad idea, before the idea extincts us." -- Karl Popper

              by eyeswideopen on Tue Jun 14, 2005 at 06:36:19 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  that doesn't mean he wasn't flouting the law (none / 0)

                what state? I'd be willing to do the research on the laws ... getting the guy prosecuted would be another problem, tho
                •  The guy died recently, (none / 0)

                  ...suddenly of a heart attack, but that doesn't mean you shouldn't do some research.  I'd sure be interested in knowing if there are laws that bind the biological father to support the mother and child -- it's only relatively recently that we could establish paternity to a very high degree of certainty.

                  "The survival value of intelligence is that it allows us to extinct a bad idea, before the idea extincts us." -- Karl Popper

                  by eyeswideopen on Tue Jun 21, 2005 at 09:39:15 PM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

      •  postscript of sorts (4.00 / 13)

        No, they haven't won the war, not yet anyway.

        But it's going to take a lot of women speaking about their experiences- outting themselves- often at high personal risks, (and don't underestimate those risks) and placing value judgements on those experiences. Back to the T-shirt (as I commented below), "I had an abortion" isn't enough, that merely marks you as a member of class of women. We're going to need to talk about the realities of our experienes, and how no, abortion is not horrible- for many of women it has been damn good.

        Further, we're going to have to gage who we're talking to. We're going to need to explain to those who are 'educatable', and stop wasting time trying to please those who aren't. Some people are not going to be persuaded no matter what the words. the only answer for them is get your damn boot off my neck- or uterus as the case may be.

        As for everone else, 'friends' need to stop telling us what we've done is varrying versions of bad and how much they wish the 'issue', (and thus we ourselves), would just go away so they can get back to (vainly) trying to win the hearts and minds of those who will not be wooed.

        What provoked this diary was yet another attempt at marketing issues that tramples women's realities- the realities of our lives.

        I'm tired of having to explain this over and over to 'progressives', 'liberals' 'democrats' and other assorted and assundry 'allies'. Either we have autonomy or we don't.

        Either we own our own bodies- or someone else does. And if that 'someone else' does, be it the state, churches, or just plain old abusive boyfriends, what are the consequences to individual women?

        Further, if we can be (to use the relgious language referenced above in my diary) 'enslaved' in these ways, what are the implications for others? What kind of society does that create, and what are the implications for those  'progressives', 'liberals' 'democrats' and other assorted and assundry 'allies'?

        No, it not some 'war' we choose. A friend in the abortion fiend refers to us as 'relectant warriors'. This came to us, and is being waged on our very bodies.

        When abortion, and therefore women who have abortions are labeled horrible by alledged 'friends' they become just another form of attack, on our most basic autonomy- our 'self rule'. Anyone who thinks that's not fair game for criticism should take a good long look in a mirror.

        barf.org : a resource for all who work to monitor and counter the Biblical America movement.

        by stormcoming on Mon Jun 13, 2005 at 03:14:33 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  Reality (4.00 / 8)

          For a good thirty years or more, each month, a woman faces the fact that she is either pregnant or not pregnant.  

          You bleed or you don't bleed.

          Or you worry that you haven't bled.

          Or you hope/pray that you won't bleed.

          Even if you aren't having sex, you are reminded monthly that you are not pregnant.

          It is a normal part of our lives.  

          How often do men think about pregnancy? How regularly do men think of pregnancy?

          Pregnancy, birth control, and abortion are not issues that we can have the luxury of waxing philosophic about and making grand pronouncements for the masses.

          We do not have the luxury of deciding if abortion can be a "winning strategy" or if the word "abortion" should be considered "horrible" and swept under the carpet.

          It's all too real for us.

          Thanks, stormcoming, for pointing this out.

        •  Autonomy IS (4.00 / 4)

          a core value that, on my list, comes before privacy.
          You wrote (and I listed them reversed):
              When abortion, and therefore women who have abortions are labeled horrible by alleged 'friends' they become just another form of attack, on our most basic autonomy- our 'self rule'.
              We're going to need to talk about the realities of our experienes, and how no, abortion is not horrible- for many of women it has been damn good.

          I have always believed that women (and men) who feel  this way, should stand up and be bravely direct as you have been with this commentary. It is good for a woman who needs/wants/has to get an abortion that she be supported in HER decision WITHOUT judgement since IT IS HER BODY and not some pod somewhere in lala land that provides the environment in which the zygote/embryo/fetus develops.  I have witnessed much relief and sometimes joy on the faces of women of different ages I helped as clinic escort or when providing transportation to and from an abortion clinic.  I know women who admitted to being happy that they had an abortion when the time for a child was not right.

          No, abortion is not a "horrible" thing.  For me, it is lifesaving:  my own life, since I decided that if I am in a situation in which I cannot terminate an unwanted pregnancy, I would by any means not continue the pregnancy. Least one thinks that is extreme, remember that the women who today, in many parts of the world, get back-alley abortions KNOW that the procedure, by the very dire conditions in which it is performed, can lead to their own deaths.  They knowingly choose a possibility of death over an unwanted pregnancy.

          Thank you for an excellent diary.

          The time has come for religions made by men for men about men to stay out of women's lives.

          by Ayanora on Mon Jun 13, 2005 at 06:15:03 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

    •  Arguments rarely really change minds (4.00 / 8)

      I am glad you wrote this. It changed my thinking. I understand 1984 and doublespeak intimately, for I think purely in language; without the words I have great trouble concieving of things. You have given me the words.

      For some time now I have secretly hated the whole abortion issue, felt it was an obstacle preventing anything else from being discussed. I thought no one would change their mind about abortion, so what was the point?

      That ambivilance was brought into sharp relief recently when my wife had a miscarriage. I no longer felt competent to choose sides at all. Even seven weeks in, that life was important and real. And yet as I learned how common miscarriage is (our doctor told us 1 in 3 pregnancies end that way) I realized how fragile that life is. Especially early on, it represents only a potential.

      I believe that my wife's body detected something wrong, that it aborted the process because that was the best thing to do. And when a woman's body does this a third of the time because something only it can detect is not right, the arguments of anti-abortion activists seem ludicrous. Yet in the end I was left unwilling to face the issue at all. It had become too big and too real.

      I have doubted my feelings about abortion for a long time. I knew what I was against but, without being able to speak to what I was for, I could only be silent.  Thank you for writing today.  You have given me new words.

    •  some fair points (none / 0)

      but I hope you can go back and read this and see where your anger is not constructive and not necessary.

      I had a lot of things to say, please take a moment and read it all

      •  Go take a look around (4.00 / 7)

        Spend some time watching Operation Rescue/Operation Save America's yearly week-long siege of clinics in various cities; attend an anti-abortion conference or two; sit through a few Christian Coalition or Reclaiming America for Christ conferences; or just spend some time at the local clinic while it's surrounded by anti-abortion wingnuts, and listen. Listen very carefully to what they say; not about abortion, but about how they want to see everyone's life structured, and all governance subservient to their concept of Biblical law.

        After that - if you've really been listening, and not dismissing them as lunatics on the assumption that such people really can't possibly take over - you'll probably be more visibly insane with anger than the diarist is.

        •  I have (none / 1)

          in Portland, OR.  Back in 1991-1992.  That is when I discovered that a large majority of the men who were there (and most of the wingnuts there were men) had a criminal history of domestic violence.  The saying: "if you are not outraged you are not paying attention" applies.  

          That doesn't mean I or anyone needs to behave as if we are in need of a rabies shot when we are discussing WHY we support the right to choose as individuals.  

          Read my diary in full if you haven't.  I hate to repeat myself without good reason: both sides here agree on the policy.  Screaming at each other about why the other is on the right side of the fence for the wrong reason is really foolish.

    •  best post on this subject ever. PERIOD. (none / 0)

      stormcoming, from the bottom of my crusty little heart i thank you for this post.  as someone who's been there done that got the tshirt, i think you've really said it all and i don't have anything to add.  

      John Cornyn is an asshole with shoes. Support Rick Noriega!

      by anna on Mon Jun 13, 2005 at 07:17:13 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  To some, it's discussing abortion that's horrible (none / 1)

      Great diary and comments. Thanks for laying out what's been frustrating to make in discussions about abortion: being pro-choice isn't the same as keeping abortion safe, legal and none of your business.

      In other discussions about issues that many feel are wrecking it for the Dems, there's a palpable envy of the right wing model that demands (and gets, voluntarily or through pressure) eventual support. Please -- dump this attitude immediately.

      Don't accept the right-wing skewed media cud that the country is "divided" ... which is oh so HORRIBLE. As if the concept of one-party rule in perpetuity is GOOD. Why is the phrase partisan-Democrats as common in Mousy Media as partisan Republicans is rare? When did dissent and diversity become BAD?

      Who granted George Fucking Bush and his Royal Republicans the divine right of kings?

      It's impractical to think that pesky "single issue" people can be made to step back into the margins and STFU except by top-down force.

      That noise is people's many different lives and views that won't fit comfortably into the kind of talking points that get handed out for this week's ginned-up Schiavo circus. That static is the hum of grassroots. You wanted em -- well here we are.

      I understand Kos's frustration about wanting to focus on strategies, and have said elsewhere that if the Dems dead-on challenged the GOP on their stances, so much hand-wringing and needless scapegoating wouldn't be necessary.

      Equality and justice for all is easier to protect -- and "sell" -- than equality and justice only for the people conservative Republicans like.

      Trying to outspin the Rethugs here is a losing proposition unless Dems get a flying monkey army that relishes harassing others.

      The attitudes behind anti-abortion extremism is about as "pro-life" as invading Iraq was about spreading freedom, and most people know this already. They only need to be reminded of what they already know.

      Conservative Republicans want abortion to be unsafe and illegal. Why? What is their plan to make men equally responsible for unplanned pregnancy? What is their plan for modern, efficient, universal pre-natal healthcare?

      Conservative Republicans are against modern birth control and disease prevention. Why? Healthcare costs are already skyrocketing so what is the Republican plan to deal with even more disease? When your kid falls off the abstinence wagon -- and most do -- do you think it's only going to be with someone who doesn't have a sexually transmitted disease?

      Senate Republican Leader Bill Frist, a doctor, is against giving women complete, current, scientific medical information about an elective procedure. That's not only immoral but illegal, and it's called being a quack. Bill Frist is against a woman basing her decision on her life, needs, and views. Why?

      House Republican Leader Tom DeLay, a religious zealot, is against women making their own moral and religious decisions. Tom DeLay is against a woman using her own religious beliefs in her own life, needs and views. Why?

      This is the leadership of today's Republican party.

      So professional and amateur party strategists do your strategizing to find the magic phrases, but make forcing the GOP to own their bullshit an everyday part of the discourse.

    •  No Abortion? Then Women are Slaves (none / 0)

      Abortion is autonomy. We loose abortion, and we've lost the most basic ownership of our own bodies and lives- no matter what gender you happen to be.

      This is the truth.

      If women can't protect themselves from having to give birth, we're slaves.

      Birth control doesn't always work, under the very best of circumstances -- and every female does NOT have access to needed birth control.

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