Daily Kos

View Story | 98 comments

  •  I know, it's REALLY LONG (4.00 / 36)

    But I think it's worth the trouble of reading. Tipjar, anyone?
    •  Who the hell do you think you are? (none / 1)

      And how the hell have I missed your stuff before now?

      A long diary, and very much worth reading, thanks. I'd try to respond with something intelligent, but I'm gonna re-read, instead. Intelligence isn't my strong suit, this time of night.

      I want someone to quote me in their sig line - Trix

      by GussieFN on Tue Aug 23, 2005 at 06:33:12 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  totally (none / 1)

        This is great stuff. You have the true voice of the modern feminist woman.

        It's really interesting to hear about your experiences trying to come to terms with what seems like the older generation, finding what's right and wrong for you.

        In a funny way, it's very similar to Kos's grappling with the Dem establishment. Both are this interesting kind of generational conflict -- the 'older' groups have wisdom and experience and a certain amount of power, but their influence is failing. Meanwhile the 'younger' folks understand the new paradigms better but don't have the experience and perspective of those who went before them.

        The world won't get no better if we just let it be.

        by drewthaler on Wed Aug 24, 2005 at 05:13:25 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

    •  Fantastic! (4.00 / 2)

      A very well-done diary.

      One point I think the movement is missing:  

      Roe v. Wade established that a woman's rights to health and life cannot be overridden by those of a fetus.  Nearly every law that the right has pushed to limit abortion since Roe v Wade has been struck down because it removes the mother's right to health.

      People who would not find a right to privacy to be sufficiently compelling (some don't believe people do have such a right) would  feel compelled to support a woman's rights to health and life.

      Those who would overturn Roe v. Wade would remove every woman's rights to life and health.

       Don't let that point slip from sight.

      Beware the everyday brutality of the averted gaze.

      by mataliandy on Wed Aug 24, 2005 at 05:35:30 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  Cheers! (none / 0)

      Cheers on getting into the real substance of the matter. Keep it up!
  •  Long but worth it (none / 0)

    That is by far the longest diary I have ever read from start to finish.  Lots of good stuff.  

    It takes a second to wreck it. It takes time to build.

    by lando on Tue Aug 23, 2005 at 07:39:06 PM PDT

  •  VERY good diary... (4.00 / 4)

    ...and telling as hell.  This completely nails it for me:  NARAL has a noble mission/destination, but those at the wheel are delusional and don't know how to drive.

    The unbelievable tactical disconnect between political reality--even simple human nature--and the theoretical framework being expressed by NARAL leaders in this diary (and elsewhere) is stark and terrifying.  Their approach is beyond tactically foolish--it is suicidal to the position they claim to stand for.  Rabidly exaggerated and easily disproven claims used to prop up alarmism is the fastest way to lose any public credibility.  

    If this is the institution primarily charged with politically defending choice in this country, choice is dead.

    The DLC was created to prevent the takeover of the Democratic Party by Democrats.

    by Dracowyrm on Wed Aug 24, 2005 at 05:04:00 PM PDT

    •  Exactly. (none / 1)

      I can't fault them for empowering their local affiliates to make endorsements.  That's laudable, and they are a non-partisan group.  They should seek to exercise as much influence as possible on their locals, to make sure they understand what is productive and not productive when it comes to endorsements, but local empowerment is a good thing.

      However, the ad was just stupid.  And their refusal to recognize that suggests the decision makers suffer from serious cognitive dissonance, hubris and ego.  

      Fortunately, NARAL is just one group.  Sadly for them, they are a group losing credibility among their constituents.

      •  I can't understand how ..... (4.00 / 2)

        .... Nancy Keenan believes that opposing Roberts will put abortion on the table. I think most independent/moderate/apathetic voters have heard pro-choice groups cry wolf once too often. Fairly or unfairly, the cries of pro-choice activists will be ignored by a majority of Americans.

        The best way to put abortion on the table is to put abortion on the table. By looking to the courts to uphold abortion rights, we are asking an unelected body to further our cause. This approach wouldn't be a problem if abortion rights didn't already have the support of a majority of Americans. As a result we have pro-choice groups locked into a (failing) judicial strategy when they could get what they want at the ballot box. The worst part about this approach to securing abortion rights is that the people upholding these rights (judges) cannot advocate their position to the masses.

        If you still believe that abortion-rights groups know what they are doing, consider the case of Lincoln Chafee. I have no problem with them endorsing Chafee. I think abortion rights benefit when Republicans can gain by moving to the left on this issue. I'd imagine that someone endorsed by NARAL wouldn't vote for an anti-choice justice. After all, aren't the courts the only thing standing between women and a jail cell? Turns out Chafee can do as he pleases. How he can vote for an anti-choice justice (Brown) and still claim to be pro-choice is beyond me? Isn't that like being pro-civil rights and voting for Strom Thurmond? Clearly this judical approach leaves a lot to be desired. The irony is that Langevin (opposed by NARAL) would have most certainly voted against Judge Brown.

        Pro-choice activsts have been fighting a losing tug-of-war battle with pro-lifers who are adeptly attacking access and confidentiality to stymie abortion rights in the country. Someday in the near future we are going to reach a breaking point. Abortion rights will be on the ballot soon. Why not make it sooner? We have a president no one can believe, a Congress seen a corrupt and self-serving and a religious movement seen as extremist (thanks to their opposition to stem cell research and the teaching of evolution). Could there be a better time to have the right to an abortion explicitly guaranteed by law?

        I think it is time to stop being afraid of the debate. Yes, we might lose. Is losing worse than not having the debate at all? Maybe. In that case, be prepared for more parental consent laws and more state legislatures witholding funds from institutions that counsel poeple on contraception and abortion.

        Making abortion illegal is one of those 'feel good' laws that accomplishes absolutely nothing good. A lot of people abhor the idea of abortion. The real question is whether they abhor it enough to put women and doctors in jail for seeking or performing abortions. The average, uninformed and apatheic American voter is new to things like consequences. When the right to an abortion is on the ballot, if we make the case that incarceration isn't the solution, we will win.

        'Feel good' laws banning abortion(like yellow ribbon patriotism) sound great until you have to deal with the consequences. End the fight once and for all!

        •  Just one "small" question: (none / 0)

          Suppose, for a moment, we went the political route you here suggest.  And even suppose we won.  And suppose, even still further (contrary to likelihood) that we got 50 states (and DC and all the protectorates, etc, etc) to legalize abortion.  Do you think for ONE FUCKING MINUTE that the fanatical anti choice people wouldn't try to get the courts to strike down state supported abortion rights on some "originalist" (read: "bullshit") interpretation of the national constitution?  Are you screaming insane?  Or just retarded?
          If the court won't recognize privacy here, where will it?  When we finally have live video of Uncle Tom, er, Clarence Thomas watching videos of himself putting pubic hairs on women's drinks?  GET REAL.

          -7.88, -6.72. "Wherever law ends, tyranny begins."--John Locke IMPEACH THE BASTARDS!!!

          by caseynm on Wed Aug 24, 2005 at 07:13:45 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  Well argued..... (none / 0)

            ..... I usually defer to people who call me a retard.

            In your hypothetical, we're in the same boat with one difference. Pro-lifers are pushing for 'activist' judges to overturn the will of the people. Now they will be pushing for an unpopular measure through autocratic means. What little sympathy they had among tepid pro-choice voters will be lost. Even if one isnn't anti-abortion, the charge that judges are overruling the people carries some weight.

            More importantly, abortion will be on the ballot in EVERY election. The threat won't seem as vague (to mainstream America) as it does now. Republicans, like all good politicians, will move to where the votees are. Or better yet, they will hold true and remain a permanent majority.

            I do think the worst consequences of the path I suggested is that women in the South and some plain states will be thrown back into the 1900s.

            p.s: Why don't you just troll rate me instead of wasting valuable space by calling me a retard?

            •  OK, I admit 'retarded' was hyperbole (none / 0)

              Mea Culpa.
              HOWEVER
              If you render the rights given in the constitution into the hands of the politicians, you will have no rights in either the short run or the long run.  No quarter on the right of privacy--and, for that matter, religious belief (when DOES that thing , properly speaking, become a person?)--being loaded into the constitution/bill of rights.  IT'S IN THERE!  Your suggestion--intentional or otherwise--is that we concede that it isn't--and you are, I believe, just wrong.

              P.S.: Troll ratings are for TROLLS, not merely for people with whom I (or anyone else) vehemently disagree(s).  Liberals can be wrong (and "just wrong!" at that :=)) without being trolls....

              -7.88, -6.72. "Wherever law ends, tyranny begins."--John Locke IMPEACH THE BASTARDS!!!

              by caseynm on Wed Aug 24, 2005 at 08:12:14 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  PPS (none / 0)

                I didn't call you retarded....I gave the option of insane or retarded.  Presumably you opted for "not insane", hence placing yourself in the "retarded" category....</snark>
                from: diary of a bored logician

                -7.88, -6.72. "Wherever law ends, tyranny begins."--John Locke IMPEACH THE BASTARDS!!!

                by caseynm on Wed Aug 24, 2005 at 08:27:19 PM PDT

                [ Parent ]

              •  I don't think we should yield.... (none / 0)

                .... an inch on privacy either. The problem with the pro-choice argument is the premise that all discussions of abortion right must be limited to the issue of privacy. They completely dismiss any and all moral considerations. Atleast consider they such concerns exist.

                For abortion rights to be limted to a discussion of privacy rights, you HAVE to assume that the fetus is not a living being during pregnancy. You rightly contend that religion shouldn't dicate the government's answer to that question. The problem is that science can't answer that question either. Should America turn to you?

                Why doesn't a fetus in the second or third trimester qualify as a human life in your opinion?

                •  Wrong terminology (none / 0)

                  It is a life, and a human life at that:  we ain't talking puppies or lizards, here....The question is whether it is in any meaningful sense a human person bearing rights.  And THAT is where the moral issue lies and that is where the court said there is no issue in the first trimester, only for the mother's health in the second trimester, and only to save the mother's life in the third trimester.  But, in the first trimester?  It's a larger or smaller clump of cells, with a heart and eyes even in the second month, but isn't in any meaningful sense a person--by my standards.  But--and here is the point--in the first trimester, you get to use your OWN religious standards (hence the invocation of the notion of privacy!)  Where does anyone come off telling my wife or daughter or sister what to believe about the personhood of that entity at that stage?

                  -7.88, -6.72. "Wherever law ends, tyranny begins."--John Locke IMPEACH THE BASTARDS!!!

                  by caseynm on Thu Aug 25, 2005 at 06:48:48 AM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

        •  Where do I start? (none / 0)

          The real question is whether they abhor it enough to put women and doctors in jail for seeking or performing abortions. The average, uninformed and apatheic American voter is new to things like consequences.

          No, the real question is how we will cope after such a law is passed.  You discuss the consequences of criminalizing abortion in a way that makes me think you really don't understand how fundamental a change such laws will bring about.  It has nothing to do with putting pregnant women in jail.  Or doctors either for that matter.  What will happen is doctors will stop performing abortions when abortions become illegal.  That means that if you or your girlfriend or your daughter or your peri-menopausal mother get pregnant by accident, you will have no realistic choice but to bear that child.  If you are desperate enough, you will find someone to perform the abortion for you -- illegally.  If you do, you might be lucky and successfully abort the fetus without damaging or killing herself.  You may not be lucky.  In the meantime, you and/or your girlfriend will become parents whether you are 14 or 44.  Parenthood is a big deal -- ask anyone with kids.  Married, single, in high school or living in a hovel with your other 12 kids you are going to have another mouth to feed.  

          Abortion-criminalization laws are about as damn fundamental as it gets.  Before you start telling NARAL how to protect reproductive rights, educate yourself.        

          First they ignore you, then they ridicule you, then they fight you, then you win. -- Gandhi

          by flo58 on Wed Aug 24, 2005 at 07:57:57 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  Your assumption.... (none / 0)

            .... that anti-abortion legislation can be passed at the federal level is unrealistic. A clear majority of Americans support Roe v. Wade.

            The most probable scenario is one where a handful of states pass laws criminalizing abortion. I do not disagree that the scenario you depicted will play out in these states. However, this nightmare will be limited to these states. Yet women (a small percentage, no doubt) can still cross state lines to get an abortion. Then, states banning abortion can do one of three things:

            • Keep the ban without punishing women who cross state lines to get an abortion.
            • Keep the ban and prosecute women who cross state lines to get an abortion.
            • Life the ban altogether.

            I think we can both agree that option #1 and option #3 are highly unlikely. The only way these states can clamp down on the few women who cross state lines to get an abortion is by throwing them in jail.

            Even if you disagree with every letter of every word or every sentence I have written, you have got to see that NARAL is fumbling around with much of a clue.

      •  But there has to be a national agenda for locals (none / 0)

        to then make the right choices about choice (all pun intended). To a Republican just because is not just stupid; it's self-defeating. In NYC, BEFORE THE PRIMARIES?!?! C'mon! It was completely uncalled for.

        In a recent study about the most liberal and conservative cities done by http://www.votingresearch.org , NYC ranked 21. FRIGGIN'21!! Unbealievable. And New York State, as a whole, had only 2 cities in the list. That can only mean one thing : NY IS TURNING INTO A REPUBLICAN STATE!

        There is no way NARAL can be left off the hook on their endorsement of Bloomberg. Nuh-uh.

  •  Quite a read. (none / 0)

    That's easily the longest diary I've ever finished.  Thanks for the insight.

    Editor of the Harvard Law Review vs. Mr. 894 out of 899. How has having a stupid President worked out the last eight years?

    by Tod on Wed Aug 24, 2005 at 05:05:59 PM PDT

  •  Awesome post (none / 1)

    I'm glad Armando bumped it up.

    Here's the thing -- people may think I'm dismissive (and other male bloggers), but our problem isn't with what these groups are fighting for. I think the Constitutional Amendment to enshrine privacy is brilliant.

    Rather, it's clear that all the progressive groups, and that includes the women's stuff, are getting killed right now. We're losing on multiple fronts because we're fighting multiple battles. The right is a cohesive movement. They're united. We're divided. And hence we're losing.

    So criticism of these groups is taken as criticism of their goals, when really, it's criticism of their ineffectiveness. We all want the same thing.

    •  Bullshit (2.50 / 8)

      Don't act like you care about women's issues.  
      •  Sorry (none / 0)

        I mean to say, "where's them damn burkas when you need them?"

        I don't care about the institutional movement that has failed to stem the erosion of privacy/health rights for women. NARAL and Co have failed. Liza seems to understands that. Lots of people do not. You, apparently, being one of them.

        Yet the status quo ain't doing anyone but the Right Wing any favors.

        I care about the end result, not about whose feelings get hurt because I criticized the wrong person.

        •  What can I say? (2.80 / 5)

          You're hysterical.  Always love me a good burka joke.  

          I wouldn't exactly call this the status quo since we are now moving away from choice.  

          Your ends justify the means strategy is going to lose.  You know a lot about losing though, right Kos?  What are you, 0-16 now?

          •  So I take it (none / 1)

            You'd rather loose 100% of the time instead of winning 90% of the time?

            Because unless we lefties start swallowing out pride and working together to form a united front, we can count on the republicans coasting from victory to victory on momentum alone.

          •  stephanie76 (4.00 / 3)

            I remember when more than 60% or 70% of Americans supported the right to choice.  I have seen the rise of NARAL and the decline of support.  I am a chick and I could give a shit about those women's feelings - they have taken on a job and have been failing year to year to "put abortion on the table".  

            Personally, I think they should have been trying to take it off the table - taken the discussion to "it is legal so get over it", but they want it on the table and they have managed the messaging poorly enough to lose support.  

          •  Ah yeah (4.00 / 3)

            The won-loss record. Good one.

            First of all, it's 2-16. And it'll probably be 4-30 by the time the next election is over. That's what happens when you work to spread the playing field by fielding more candidates and challenging incumbent Republicans and open red districts.

            And it's what happens when you think long-term and work to build up parties in districts and states that have no Democratic parties. You see, it's call working on the big picture.

            But you can applaud NARAL for endorsing Chafee, and you can applaud Chafee for voting to confirm Janice Brown and other anti-choice judges when our anti-abortion Democrats voted against those judges. And after you're done applauding Chafee for being "pro-choice", and ragging on "anti-abortion" Democrats, you can consider why we're losing so badly on the issue.

            Aside from the assault on choice by the governing Republicans, abortion is the one issue in which teens are more conservative than adults. Kinds that are strongly for gay marriages and other progressive causes are trending away from Choice. Not a good long-term development.

          •  This is not about just choice! (none / 0)

            This is about the very foundation of our democracy, THE US FRIGGIN' CONSTITUTION, being gutted by the dominionists while NARAL pisses away millions on an ad that was thoroughly divisive.

            They should have fucking used that money to build the infrastructure for a PRO-CHOICE NEW MEDIA NETWORK; so the "Catholic News" and the "LifeNews" of the internet don't go around spewing their hateful lies about abortion.

            You don't get it.

          •  no burka jokes here (none / 1)

            where women's words are valued and respected, Our Word

            by artemisia on Thu Aug 25, 2005 at 01:41:21 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

        •  Can I hate you for being funny? (none / 0)

      •  Give it up please (none / 0)

        If you are going to call bullshit, do it with substance.
    •  Bullshit II (1.50 / 6)

      I should add that if anyone's dividing us, it's YOU, Kos.  But don't trouble yourself to worry abou the "women's stuff" because it comes off as fake.  
    •  A bad idea. (4.00 / 5)

      >>I think the Constitutional Amendment to enshrine privacy is brilliant.<<

      I don't.  If you push for that Amendment you are announcing to the world that there is no right of privacy in the Constitution now.  You simply cannot push for such an Amendment unless the Supreme Court shifts and says the Right of Privacy isn't there.

      •  'duck (none / 0)

        Did you feel the same way about the Equal Rights Amendment?

        I will again advocate the wording from the Montana Constitution:

        The right of individual privacy is essential to the well-being of a free society and shall not be infringed without the showing of a compelling state interest.
        •  'Again advocate?' (none / 0)

          I must've missed this. I'd love to read your thoughts. Link?

          I want someone to quote me in their sig line - Trix

          by GussieFN on Wed Aug 24, 2005 at 05:48:36 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  cripes . . . (none / 0)

            . . . I haven't really done a lengthy diary on this, though I've brought it up a few times.  Constitutionally and politically, I think it could be a real winner.

            The basic idea is this: conservatives have always been able to dodge the issue by saying, "We oppose these Supreme Court decisions because we don't think the Constitution contains the right to privacy."  It allows them to avoid saying, "We oppose privacy itself, and believe that government should have a role in running your personal life."

            This forces the issue.

        •  Frankly, ... (none / 0)

          The ERA isn't something I've given much thought too.  Why?  Because in my view women are entitled to equal rights with men under our present understanding of the Constitution.  

          I certainly understand why the ERA was first proposed by the Suffrage Movement back in the wake of the 19th.  But, that living Constitution thing appears to have prevailed over an originalist view of the Constitution.  If you're not an originalist (and I'm not), there's no need for an ERA.

          And I tend to think that the impetus for the ERA has largely died because of a perceived lack of need.  

          Proposing a Right to Privacy Amendment in the present rhetorical environment risks a reverse process to that which rendered the ERA irrelevant.  The public would see any such effort by the Left as a fatal admission that the Right is correct that there is no right to privacy now.

          •  Well . . . (none / 0)

            . . . for starters, that depends on its being seen as proposed by people on the Left, doesn't it?  Doesn't have to be that way.

            The ERA was ratified by 35 states, three short of passage.  It was important because intermediate scruty isn't enough, and still is.

            We can advance the claim without forfeiting our mode of constitutional interpretation, especially because on the ground level where this will be fought, people won't care.

            •  "proposed by people on the Left" (none / 0)

              No poblem getting the libertarian right and libertarians behind ths one.

              The opening round should be introduction of State Contitution Right to Privacy Amendments.

              Ron Paul as initial sponsor in the House?

              Democratic Candidate for US Senate, WI (2012)
              Masel4senate

              by ben masel on Wed Aug 24, 2005 at 08:48:57 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

            •  I disagree. (none / 0)

              >>We can advance the claim without forfeiting our mode of constitutional interpretation, especially because on the ground level where this will be fought, people won't care.<<

              My point is really simple.  Right now, in the context of the Roberts confirmation, a strong argument against Roberts is that he is a radical because he doesn't think that there is a right to privacy in the Constitution.  And Roberts' strategy in defending these claims is to obscure his position (and perhaps his position is obscure), in contrast, for example, with Bork who just admitted he thought there no such right to privacy.  Roberts' has to take this obscure position because most of us do believe there is such a right to privacy.

              If, in contrast to the present, there was a movement supported by Democrats and prominent liberals to add a Right to Privacy amendment to the Federal Constitution, Roberts could not be portrayed as out of the mainstream for believing there was no Right of Privacy now.  Such an amendment validates the view there is no right of privacy now.  This is not analogous to the ERA because at the time the ERA was proposed women clearly were not granted equal rights.

      •  I'm not sure that's true. (none / 0)

        The people fighting to inscribe the Ten Commandments on courthouse walls aren't admitting that religion has no place in our legal system.

        I don't know why 'enshrining' the right to privacy (with a nod toward abortion) would be more damaging an admission than 'enshrining' the right of, say, assembly  (with a nod toward protest outside of free-speech zones).

        I want someone to quote me in their sig line - Trix

        by GussieFN on Wed Aug 24, 2005 at 05:47:33 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  No, actually (none / 1)

          They are screaming that the secularists have pushed/outlawed/flogged religion from the public square.

          To be analogous, pro-privacy amenders would need to shout that privacy has already been eradicated by the rightists.

          its hard to drink all day unless you start in the morning

          by The Exalted on Wed Aug 24, 2005 at 07:41:26 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

      •  Excuse me! (none / 0)

        But with that kind of thinking, the language minority provision of the Voting Rights Act would have never been passed.

        Language Minority Voting Rights
        http://www.usdoj.gov/crt/voting/sec_203/activ_203.htm

    •  Not so (none / 1)

      We're losing on multiple fronts because we're fighting multiple battles. The right is a cohesive movement. They're united. We're divided.

      That just is not true.

      The GOP leadership in Washington is not prioritizing school prayer or gay marriage amendments. But the Christian Right is mobilized specifically for those causes, and is at best 'ho hum' about, say, Social Security.

      Kos, you are demanding that progressives march in tighter lockstep than conservatives.

      And I don't like it.

      •  I disagree. (4.00 / 2)

        The left suffers from a number of fracturing forces that do not plague the right, these include:

        (1) Identity politics:  This should be self-explanatory.  The hispanics advocate for hispanic rights, the gays advocate for gay rights, the feminists advocate for women's rights, etc., too often it seems that the advocacy is not for principles but for groups.  

        (2) The lack of networks to promote up and comers:  The right wing has a bunch of cabals to get their people advanced.  These include the Federalists, the think tanks, the academic networks, etc.  The left subscribes to the philosophically more satisfying but less effective notion that favoritism and crass old boy promotion is a bad thing.  Consequently, the left does not have the kind of unifying networks we see on the right.

        (3) Class warfare: The Right subscribes to a rising tide of tax cuts floats all boats philosophy that is appealing across all economic divides.  In contrast, the Left has significant elements that want to pit the lower classes against the upper classes, labor against management, etc.

        Ultimately, when you look at the Left you see a bunch of "special interests" with causes that are not entirely compatible as compared with the Right.  It is much easier for the Right to march in lock-step because the things which unify the Right are more basic and fewer in number than the interests which motivate the left.  

        •  Oh, it's worse than that. (none / 0)

          It also strikes to the heart of Union corruption.  We need to avoid the model of trade unions with special privileges -- "all steelworkers get benefit X", and get back to advocating for all workers.  Corporate profits are higher now than they have ever been, yet wages are declining.  This is exactly the kind of situation that should encourage unionizing -- all workers should get a larger part of the larger pie.

          -7.75 -4.67

          "Freedom's just another word for nothing left to lose."

          by Odysseus on Wed Aug 24, 2005 at 07:09:58 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

        •  The Right and special interests (none / 0)

          Why doesn't the right fracture more easily? I don't believe that there are significantly fewer 'special interest groups' on the right:

          • Fundamentalist Christians
          • Corporate interests
          • Laissez-faire economics advocates (not the same)
          • Disaffected whites, since civil rights and Nixon's Southern Strategy
          • Legacy Republicans, e.g. Chafee

          I disagree that this coalition is inherently more cohesive than the Dem coalition -- but historically, it does seem less fractious. Maybe that's just the advantage of winning: you shrug off annoying teammates when you're winning games.

          We need to understand the dynamics of this -- better than I do, anyway. I don't believe the answer is, they have a coherent philosophy while we are a jumble of special interests.

      •  This has nothing to do with lockstep (none / 0)

        Look at the mess that the NYC mayoral race is. It's horrible, you know why? Because they have no interest whatsoever in the party winning the elections. They're just demographic-dependent candidates who'd rather see Bloomberg win than give the front-runner, Freddy Ferrer, a shot at running without a run-off. These are the single issues people; the politicians with no vision but pure ambition. And they'd rather scream and rant and pull apart for their own slices of power than to truly do anything remotely powerful or transformative politically. They're exactly like the survivalist activists I talked about.

        The extremists? They have a mission. It's pure and simple POWER. Whether it is for god or the corporation, it does not matter. They want it and badly.

        I don't want power. I want possibility. But you have to hand it to the extremists, they have their shit far more together than us, the so-called left.

    •  no... (none / 0)

      we all want similar groups of things, and we place very different priorities on individual goals within those groupings.  

      it's this kind of patronizing talk -- i wasn't insulting your cause, you just weren't able to comprehend my grand strategic plan -- that gets so many people so pissed off around here.

      www.beyondmarriage.org

      by decafdyke on Wed Aug 24, 2005 at 06:13:37 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  This amendment would be good, but.... (none / 0)

      We have no clear leaders to push it. The only person I think who could is you, Markos. It would need to be someone willing to get groups with differing goals to set aside their differences and work together towards this mutually benifitial goal. As a techy liberal, the prospect of an enshrined foundation of privacy going into the digital age makes me want to shout with glee. Saddly, I cannot see how it could be brought about unless current de-facto leaders take up this cause and work at it.
    •  BRAVO!!! (none / 0)

      You and I are on the same page about this, even though I still bitch slapped you for the way you handled the pie incidence.

      It's not the message, but the tactic. We all need a bit of working on that front ;-)

      I believe that regardless of what NARAL decides to do with bloggers, we need to have a national conference of bloggers soon --conference call, meeting, whatever-- to discuss strategy, vision, mission and message.

      We need to do this BEFORE THE CONVENTION. YearlyKos is too far away. We need to deal with this like ... yesterday.

  •  Outstanding (none / 0)

    This diary was excellent.  Excellent job of trying to see the big picture, recognizing that the NARAL people were in a different place, trying to keep dialogue going...this is why I am addicted to this site.  Where else can you get this kind of deep thinking?
  •  Absolutely terrific post, liza (none / 0)

    Thank you.
  •  It's probably just me ... (1.00 / 3)

    but I'm willing to bet this only got bumped up because Liza is willing to kiss ass as much as the bootlickers around here.  

    Choice has been a winning strategy for decades.  It's only losing because Democrats are moving away from it.

    •  Holy Geezus (none / 0)

      Who the fuck else can you insult?

      Everybody dies alone.

      by Armando on Wed Aug 24, 2005 at 05:38:34 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  Sorry (3.50 / 2)

        That was pretty unconstructive I guess.  I'm sick of the NARAL bashing though and I'm sick of the "I'm just a boy with a blog" garbage.  
        •  to be clear (none / 0)

          the 4 was for the apology and acknowledgment that previous statement was not constructive.

          www.beyondmarriage.org

          by decafdyke on Wed Aug 24, 2005 at 06:14:40 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

        •  Left wing equivalent of Right wing wingnuts (none / 0)

          I'm a left-leaning independant myself, but attitudes like this are the reason I consider the pro-choice movement to be the home of the wingnuts in the Democratic party.

          I believe in the right to choose, but I think the whacked out nut-jobs who insist on pissing off everyone on both sides of the isle should be booted out of the party until they learn some proper manners and teamwork.

          On the other hand, I'm not a member of the party, so who am I to say.  Then again, the moderates tend to be the ones who really decide which party will control the government.  And if you're pissing off people like me, then you probably aren't doing your cause a lot of good.

          PS - Although I consider myself an independant, I haven't voted for a Republican in several years.  I would have voted for McCain over Gore if McCain had won the primary in 2000 though.

          congratulations on your foreskin -- osteriser

          by bartman on Wed Aug 24, 2005 at 06:51:47 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

    •  So, with user id 55247 (4.00 / 4)

      You've been around here what, two-three weeks? You know what the FPers are looking for in front page posts to promote? You know what Markos's motivations and political beliefs are?

      Do you have anything constructive to bring to this important discussion, or just more epithets to toss around>

      Those who would give up Essential Liberty to purchase a little Temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety. -- Ben Franklin

      by mcjoan on Wed Aug 24, 2005 at 05:41:44 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  This post was also front-paged (4.00 / 2)

      on MyLeftWing.  Now, you may not have noticed, but Maryscott OConnor doesn't take shit from anyone; she's had some serious issues with Kos's gender politics; and she's an ardent feminist.

      There is nothing in this post about moving away from choice.  There is a great deal of criticism for methodology (endorsing Republicans, for God's sake, the quintessential anti-choice party); criticism for lack of political sagacity; and criticism for one particularly unhelpful ad.

      It does not, in any way, critique the underlying policy.  The suggestion that we create a new frame, privacy, to encapsulate the many liberal positions, is a good one.  Privacy could protect gay sex.  It could protect women's health choices.  It could protect us all from intrusive wiretapping.  And there is absolutely no way that anyone could be anti-privacy without looking like a whacked out lunatic fringe moron.  It's a win-win strategy.

      Notice that this is a new frame.  It is not a retreat.  It is, frankly, nothing more than thinking outside of the envelope-- strategically.

      This post is a blunt, honest assessment of what is wrong with NARAL's approach.  It's the bare beginning of a much-needed method workshop.  It is not an attack upon the fundamental goal of protecting women's rights to reproductive freedom and choice.  It was not written by a Kos sycophant.  Liza has her own blog (where she is doing very well, I think).  She is attempting to broadcast this post because she clearly thinks it is important.

      I believe she is correct.

      Please, understand that criticism is sometimes a necessary part of rethinking a failing strategy.  Let me be blunt: the highwater mark of women's rights occurred before I was born, inscribed in clay by a Supreme Court decision of unparalleled bravery and righteousness.  Since then, however, the strategy that has been prevalent for the last twenty years has been a process of slow surrender.  Ceding territory step by step before the phenomenal aggression of the right.  Congress has slowly but steadily stripped away women's reproductive rights.  Rightwing idealogues are returned to congress again and again on the "right to life platform."

      We need to reframe and rethink the debate.  And don't even try to tell me NARAL knows what it is doing.  Any chess player can see that they are heading toward a slow, agonizing checkmate ten or twenty years down the road.  Don't even try to tell me that a rethink isn't in order.  

      Liza is a feminist with a powerful critique and some interesting ideas for a new approach.  Rather than lashing out like this, why in hell cant you just try listening?

      •   Thanks for the awesome words. (none / 0)

        I do have my own blogs, with a lot of my readers not being from these internet hinterlands :)

        I am spreading the word on this diary because I think it deals with issues we the people of the netroots need to deal with head on. I am not just putting ideas out there, I am asking people to take action. I am ready to take action.

        So the more people involved, the merrier. That's what grassroots activism is all about.

        Thanks again.

    •  You have homework to do (none / 0)

      Write why choice is better than the right to privacy. 1500 words minimum. Double-spaced, with links and sources. You have until tomorrow morning.
  •  Great, great, post (4.00 / 6)

    To me it all boils down to this:

    Which is why NARALs faux pas makes total sense : They are living in the past as far as activism is concerned. They're focus is on extracting money and marches for their events; not gardening and tending to a network of activism and influence through the media and political landscape of the country. Theirs is the kind of survivalist activism that expects unconditional allegiance from the grassroots because it is "us against them".

    That's the majority of political/activist/single issue groups in a nutshell. Their approach to politics and to doing their critical work hasn't evolved much in the past decade to keep up with the vastly changed political landscape. We are so far in the minority now, and the Republicans have gotten so batshit crazy, that our tactics HAVE to change. That might mean something as simple as changing your litmus test for who gets your endorsement.

    Wow. There so much more here to talk about. Great post.

    Those who would give up Essential Liberty to purchase a little Temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety. -- Ben Franklin

    by mcjoan on Wed Aug 24, 2005 at 05:49:07 PM PDT

    •  I'm a second generation activist. (none / 1)

      I was born out of the Civil Rights movement. Believe me, this is not just speculation. I am living this generational divide right now. But you get it and other people here get it. Now what we need is to open up channels of communication with 'the elders' in the hopes that, if they don't get it, at least have the common sense to try to work with us.

      And this is where it all starts.

  •  Too much to digest (none / 0)

    in one sitting, but I do thank you for the very provocative post.

    After the loss of 2004, I quit giving money to NARAL.  They have been unable to express themselves in a way that resonates with anyone who isn't already an activist.  

    Similarly, but many more years ago, I dumped my membership in NOW for the same reasons.  

    I'm tired of rowing in a boat that isn't going anywhere.  

    So, for the moment anyway, I'm concentrating my donating and my efforts on trying to actually ELECT pro-choice Democrats.  

    It's the Supreme Court, Stupid!

    by Radiowalla on Wed Aug 24, 2005 at 06:03:35 PM PDT

  •  Brilliant and important diary (4.00 / 2)

    I do think NARAL is diseased if they're focusing on candidate's opinions about abortion and not what they do with judges. If the judges decide against abortion, which will be the result of more Chafees, then it doesn't matter what we think about abortion.

    --

    If I could suggest just a little tweak?

    Your analysis of poststructuralism seems spot on to me, and I know it's a bit cheeky of me to suggest to someone who's been in the game longer than I have (I'm just finishing the PhD), but I think you might need to emphasize, for this gang, the political uses of poststructuralist theory. I think for a lot of people, they're going to see it as silly, J. Sokol kind of stuff, or as purely linguistic, pushing words around. Here's are the two primary ways poststructuralism helps me as a political thinker:

    • It calls attention to Truth as a something that is largely contingent upon who gets to be listened to. This insight doesn't jettison the reality of, for instance, someone being beaten to death. But it does insist that I wonder who's telling the story and why and insists that I always remember there's no such thing as an innocent, bald recital of the facts.

    • It forces me to be deeply suspicious of any foundationalist movement. Nostalgia, the desire for purity, the desire for the homogeneous point of origin, all of these are dangerous, monolithic ways of thinking. We need the freedom of recognizing that people, movements, the polis, are all heterogeneous, that we don't all come from some one, authentic place, and that while we have goals, we don't have a teleology. And any effort to clamp down on that difference is violent.

    If you were to rewrite this piece ever, I'm sure you could take what I just did and make it more eloquent. I'm just trying to head off the anti-theory crowd.

    Qui faciant leges ubi sola pecunia regnat? -- Petronius

    by Karl the Idiot on Wed Aug 24, 2005 at 06:24:15 PM PDT

  •  Great post, but... (none / 0)

    ...I think the pro-choice forces have to be careful in hoping states rights will protect them. We've seen how well that's worked out for Medical Marijuana users.

    All in all, I thought this was an eye opening post, so thanks. I just wanted to point out I think we need to be wary of relying on states rights, since Republicans only believe in states rights when the states agree with them.

    As for Roberts, I think once he is in, we will be in for far more trouble then just the abortion issue. I think we are probably looking at an incredible erosion of any individual rights and the establishment of a national religion, aka the American Taliban.

    The sleep of reason produces monsters.

    by Alumbrados on Wed Aug 24, 2005 at 06:30:26 PM PDT

    •  State's rights aren't a cure-all (none / 1)

      but they do form a sturdy dike, and can slow the erosion of rights.  At a time when the party in control of the three branches of federal government ardently opposes women's rights, it seems to me that a strategy of focusing attention of state laws and constitutions seems a sensible redirect: the federal level is unwinnable until dems/greens take back congress and the executive. We have a year or three before we see a change on that front.  Why waste time?  Ram the necessary laws through the blue and purple states; then, when we once again control Congress, turn our attention back to picking some liberal judges for the courts.

      It doesn't have to be an either/or.  We can do both.

    •  Medical Marijuana (none / 0)

      We've taken that fight to the State level because we haven't had a choice. The Clinton administation was even more closed to us than the Bush admin. With Shalala at HSS we couldn't even get research exemptions, which were approved by Thompson at HHS.

      Democratic Candidate for US Senate, WI (2012)
      Masel4senate

      by ben masel on Thu Aug 25, 2005 at 07:46:35 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  So Much GREAT stuff (none / 1)

    Just one thought -- not about NARAL, but about women and health and the ownership of their own reproductive facilities.

    I just recently read Killing the Black Body: by Dorothy Roberts.  It is the best and most lucid argument I have yet seen which ties reproductive rights, privacy, race, and the ultimate dignity of individual value together in one place.  It is amazing.

    What you get, which the NARAL Legionaires can't because of their long suffering battles, is that the field has moved dramatically.  Choice is a quaint notion compared to the general attacks on privacy that are currently taking place.  In fact, emphasis on choice alone makes it easier, IMO, to take away a woman's right to birth control, consensual sex, rights in marriage vis a vis the husband, etc.  If the issue is fought entirely around the NARAL question of when the state can intrude, then much of the battle is lost.  And please do not get me started on the use of restrictive laws to respond to pornography or other "harmful" information (I once saw huge stickers placed by activists that read "this book promotes violence against women" on a book about herbal cares for menstral cramps and pain).

    As The Guy said, the goal of some on the right is pure power -- yes -- but those powerful people are willing to give a bone to their supporters/surrogate fighters/distractoers/whatever -- and that bone is the re-ownership of women's autonomy.

    I so appreciate your post because, setting aside the political problems with the mainstream feminist industrial complex of today, real serious shit is coming and we better have a (better) plan to stop it.

    Save your tears for the living

    by immanentize on Wed Aug 24, 2005 at 06:45:55 PM PDT

  •  Privacy is great; PRIVACY AND LIBERTY is better (none / 1)

    Excellent diary.  I will add my $.02 (with a repeat comment from other legal threads) to layer on the fact that not only did SCOTUS revisit Roe in 1992 and uphold on stare decisis, but also: when SCOTUS considered Lawrence v. Texas, the holding was rooted not only in "privacy" but also in LIBERTY.  I would argue that Roe now has two strong legs: privacy as seen through the lens of Griswold and liberty as recently seen through the lens of Lawrence.  

     I am still stirred every time I read Kennedy's majority opinion in Lawrence et al. v. Texas, which involved the prosecution of Lawrence and Garner by the State of Texas for adult consensual anal sex. (Link is to wikipedia, I can't get the link to FindLaw to work.) In the opinion, Justice Kennedy forcefully argues that the rights of homosexuals are rights related to dignity (which is a social norm) and liberty (which is an exceptionally well-grounded constitutional norm):

    adults may choose to enter upon this relationship in the confines of their homes and their own private lives and still retain their dignity as free persons. When sexuality finds overt expression in intimate conduct with another person, the conduct can be but one element in a personal bond that is more enduring. The liberty protected by the Constitution allows homosexual persons the right to make this choice.   [my emphasis]

    He makes the critical point that the privacy, equality, and dignity rights flow from the liberty interest that the Constitution protects:

    Equality of treatment and the due process right to demand respect for conduct protected by the substantive guarantee of liberty are linked in important respects, and a decision on the latter point advances both interests.

    There are lots of gems throughout the case, but I'll close with this one, which for me kind of sums it up in the broad, sweeping language that SCOTUS sometimes does so well:

    The case does involve two adults who, with full and mutual consent from each other, engaged in sexual practices common to a homosexual lifestyle. The petitioners are entitled to respect for their private lives. The State cannot demean their existence or control their destiny by making their private sexual conduct a crime. Their right to liberty under the Due Process Clause gives them the full right to engage in their conduct without intervention of the government.  [my emphasis]

    For the record, I do not in any way equate gay rights with choice rights, but Kennedy's doctrine is powerful ammo against a variety of targets.  So if Roe is on the table, let's not forget "liberty."

    Loyalty comes from love of good government, not fear of a bad one. Justice Hugo Black.

    by Pondite on Wed Aug 24, 2005 at 06:50:17 PM PDT

  •  Terrific diary! (none / 1)

    You have NARAL exactly pegged! I personally would advise anyone to donate their money to some other pro-choice organization; this one pisses money away on ill-thoughtout ad campaigns and misguided political tactics.

    Having worked with two separate local NARAL groups ... and yes, you'd be hard pressed to tell that they were part of the same organization ... I can say that the lack of "the vision thing" permeates the entire organization. They are operating like it's still 1976. There is no nuance, no media savvy. They are constantly in seige mentality where they should have sloughed of that mindset in the late 70s for a more secure and in control demeanor. So the "seige mentality" has, over the last two decades become a self-fulfilling prophesy.

    And their rhetoric should be the "poster child" for bad "framing" (if you'll forgive me the use of this overused term.)

    You have no idea how their chronic screw-ups piss me off. This right should indeed be "off the table". Thank the goddess that they weren't around  80+ years ago. I'm sure that if the suffrage movement had their organization, women would have lost the vote decades ago.

    White woman over 50 for OBAMA!! (Endorsed 10/07)

    by Glinda on Wed Aug 24, 2005 at 09:24:42 PM PDT

  •  lots to think about (none / 1)

    First, I really like the idea of a push for a Constitutional Amendment for the Right to Privacy. I've argued for some time here and at Liberal Street Fighter that privacy can be a common ground that the left can rally around. It's great to see it put forward so forcefully.

    The Feminists' job is to assume there is no Truth but suppressed truths. Our job is to pick apart the layers of meaning heaved down society's throat as The Truth. Through this process, we are not only to reveal The Truth as the constructed fallacy it is but, once shattered, recompose it into the many truths and the many stories its 'oneness' suppresses.

    I think that is exactly right, but I would expand it to state that it is the Humanists' job to accomplish exactly that. I am a Feminist BECAUSE I am a Humanist, and all of those "Truths" that are commonly accepted serve to stifle and destroy human potential. It has been done most agressively based on racism and misogyny, but so many of those twisted "Truths" diminish us all for the benefit of a ruthless or privileged few.

    Thanks for giving me a lot to think about.  

  •  excellent post, Liza (none / 0)

    I would also point out that the same stale problems at NARAL that lead to the foot-in-mouth disease exist in large establishment gay rights organizations like HRC, which completely blew its potential to combat state amendements in 2004 by not doing enough at the state level, funding high-profile nonsense such as the decision to roll a billboard truck around NYC during the GOP convention with "George W. Bush: "You're Fired" emblazoned on it. Highly visible, highly ineffective.

    These organizations have to get it together or step aside.

View Story | 98 comments