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Hand me down my walking cane, hand me down my hat...
by Cheez Whiz on Tue Aug 09, 2005 at 11:08:48 AM PDT
[ Parent ]
Visit RemoveRepublicans.com and follow every 2006 Senate race.
by AnthonySF on Tue Aug 09, 2005 at 11:10:49 AM PDT
From reading dkos you would think that NARAL single-handedly elected Chafee. Every time his name is mentioned by Kos or anyone else, there is a mile-long thread of how diabolical or self-defeating NARAL is. Can we all just hold our tongues about NARAL long enough to take on the real task? Namely, to out Roberts for the wingnut he is? PLEASE!
As for the 1s and 2s, you have never gotten them from me. I frequently disagree with people here and especially with Kos on this issue, where I believe he has developed a blind spot. But I am not 5 any more. I am not going take my toys and leave the playground about this or hit you with ones or twos.
First they ignore you, then they ridicule you, then they fight you, then you win. -- Gandhi
by flo58 on Tue Aug 09, 2005 at 11:51:24 AM PDT
by AnthonySF on Tue Aug 09, 2005 at 12:04:30 PM PDT
by flo58 on Tue Aug 09, 2005 at 12:07:20 PM PDT
John McCain will ban abortion.
by itsbenj on Tue Aug 09, 2005 at 12:14:52 PM PDT
However, why would Naral choose a pro-choice Republican over a pro-choice Democrat when the Democratic party supports the right to choose and the republican party does not?
It would seem to me that if all things are equal Naral should always support the Democrat - it only makes sense.
Honor bound to defend freedom. Freedom is long-standing army regulations.
by RichardG on Tue Aug 09, 2005 at 01:20:04 PM PDT
by Ms. American Pie on Tue Aug 09, 2005 at 01:55:50 PM PDT
Chaffee certainly is way too spineless to buck the GOP on anything other than votes that are already in the bag.
Given that, NARAL wouldn't gain anything by supporting the GOP candidate while even a pro-life democrat would help them because you are never going to get anti-choice legislation from a Democratically controlled congress.
by savvyspy on Tue Aug 09, 2005 at 02:13:03 PM PDT
cheers,
Mitch Gore
Wanna win in '08...?
Put your money where your mouth is.
by Lestatdelc on Tue Aug 09, 2005 at 02:58:04 PM PDT
The frogurt is also cursed. -8.25, -6.51
by Superribbie on Tue Aug 09, 2005 at 03:16:07 PM PDT
Six Democrats voted for him Lincoln, Prior, Breaux, Landreiu, Miller and Ben Nelson. The fact of the matter is that anti-choice Democrats have no difficulty voting to confirm judges like Holmes.
So I ask again, how do you reconcile your "premise" with the facts that Chaffee is better on these issues than numerous Democrats, particularly when it comes to wing-nut judge confirmations and specific legislation?
The Democratic party has a long way to go to earn blanket support on issues like medical privacy, equal rights, etc.
by Lestatdelc on Tue Aug 09, 2005 at 04:29:51 PM PDT
Republican who voted against Holmes: Collins Snowe Chafee Kay Bailey Hutchinson John Warner
Democrats who voted for that neanderthal piece of crap: Lincoln Prior Breaux Landrieu Ben Nelson Miller
Senators who were absent: Kerry Edwards Murkowski
So how does that disprove the premise?
Do I need to explain further? the 'premise' is crap. Holmes isn't the only only misogynistic judge confirmed by the Vichy Dems. Not by a long shot. He's just a particularly good example to demonstrate that the 'trust us' spin is crap.
by colleen on Tue Aug 09, 2005 at 08:09:18 PM PDT
Chaffee's hired BushCo's best to run his re-election campaign. The GOP will do their damnedest to assure that he can cast a meaningless NO vote on Roberts by carefully orchestrating the rest of their Senate faction to walk in lockstep. Then Chaffee can phone his buddies at NARAL, and tell them that he really, really tried ...
The next fantasy: Obama/Dean (please let it be)
by wystler on Tue Aug 09, 2005 at 12:22:27 PM PDT
Illegal is not a noun
by Colorado Luis on Tue Aug 09, 2005 at 11:12:13 AM PDT
by AnthonySF on Tue Aug 09, 2005 at 11:15:23 AM PDT
Why isn't Chuck Pennachio just as good or better a candidate for Pennsylvanians than Casey?
John McCain a/k/a John Sidney "Grampy McSame"
by MRL on Tue Aug 09, 2005 at 11:33:41 AM PDT
by AnthonySF on Tue Aug 09, 2005 at 11:40:19 AM PDT
gosh, now where have i heard that strategy before...
You can lead an elephant to water but you can't make 'em think.
by bill in wa on Tue Aug 09, 2005 at 11:44:00 AM PDT
by AnthonySF on Tue Aug 09, 2005 at 11:49:49 AM PDT
otherwise, you've just made your position that much more tenious.
by bill in wa on Tue Aug 09, 2005 at 11:53:36 AM PDT
In short, the Democratic commitment to choice has faltered in the past, and it could falter in the future. The Senate Minority Leader is anti-choice. Dems are pushing for anti-choice candidates in blue states. And Democrats talk very publicly about adopting more conservative positions on issues like reproductive freedom. Then, at the drop of a hat, they attack groups like NARAL.
Moreover, this issue is not simply about preserving rights, when, in practice, those rights are becoming harder and harder for women -- especially low-income women -- to excercise. We need federal policies that positively increase access to contraception and, yes, abortion services. And, unfortunately, the Democrats simply cannot be trusted to do this without a lot of outside pressure from groups like NARAL. More power to them!
This nicely summarizes what's wrong with American political life today. (Source)
by GreenSooner on Tue Aug 09, 2005 at 02:20:40 PM PDT
by friendofliberty on Tue Aug 09, 2005 at 02:28:58 PM PDT
by GreenSooner on Tue Aug 09, 2005 at 02:53:00 PM PDT
by AnthonySF on Tue Aug 09, 2005 at 03:18:21 PM PDT
No one is suggesting that staunch choice advocates run in Alabama. RI and PA ain't Ala., though.
by MRL on Tue Aug 09, 2005 at 08:24:11 PM PDT
RI is definitely blue blue blue. Unfortunately half of their Senate representation is GOP. But the path to 51 goes through Providence, and it seemed as though Langevin had the edge.
by AnthonySF on Tue Aug 09, 2005 at 09:55:21 PM PDT
This sounds a bit like political expedience. Not my favorite method of doing things.
by MRL on Tue Aug 09, 2005 at 12:38:49 PM PDT
by AnthonySF on Tue Aug 09, 2005 at 12:47:08 PM PDT
In contrast, Casey raised $1.97M and has $1.575M on hand, Santorum raised $5.77M and has $5.655M on hand, and neither has any debt.
Join Me at Netroots Nation: The Next President and the Law
by Adam B on Tue Aug 09, 2005 at 01:00:44 PM PDT
The "electability" meme has momemtum - hell, it brought John Kerry (for better or for worse) back from the dead.
by MRL on Tue Aug 09, 2005 at 02:28:57 PM PDT
Ongoing List of Complaints Against George Allen
by VirginiaBelle on Tue Aug 09, 2005 at 11:46:00 AM PDT
by MRL on Tue Aug 09, 2005 at 12:43:11 PM PDT
by VirginiaBelle on Tue Aug 09, 2005 at 01:13:55 PM PDT
I didn't like Dennis Kucinich, but he said it best: "if you vote for me, I'm electable."
Where is the blogsphere in getting behind him instead of an Anti-Choice democrat in a Blue state?
What you are really asking is "what's wrong with winning" and what I'm asking is "what's right about following a guy just becuase he's in the lead" (when you have a chance to affect the lead.
But, then again, there hasn't been much leadership in the Democratic party lately . . .
by MRL on Tue Aug 09, 2005 at 08:20:08 PM PDT
If you vote for me I am electable, but how are you going to get people to vote for you? I've worked on too many campaigns and been in too many field offices to ignore how important the basic logistics are of campaigning. Call me a snob if you want to, but it takes more to win then ideals.
Lastly, I hate this argument in regards to the Pennsylvania race because it's sorta like asking "When's the last time you hit your wife?" It assumes that Casey is this really crappy candidate who the only thing he has going for him is that he's "electable", and the assumption is made that the reason everyone says he's electable is because he's pro-life. So the die hard choicers get up in arms because we're saying that you have to be pro-life to be electable. When it has nothing to do with that. Casey is a popular and well-known member of a political dynasty in Pennsylvania. He is the current state treasurer, and by the way, is pretty damn good to labor. Yes, he's pro-life, but there are a myriad of other issues on which he's a great candidate, and I am not a single issue voter. And on top of that, there are all of the above logistical reasons why he is a better candidate. For all your attacks on going with a candidate because they are electable, well, why is being popular and well-funded now a sign that they're a crap candidate who should be opposed?
by VirginiaBelle on Wed Aug 10, 2005 at 07:10:56 AM PDT
And... Casey Jr.'s pro-life father was a very well-liked governor here.
by Erin on Thu Aug 11, 2005 at 06:34:38 PM PDT
Just a few reasons off the top of my head
by Superribbie on Tue Aug 09, 2005 at 12:42:44 PM PDT
by MRL on Tue Aug 09, 2005 at 12:46:45 PM PDT
by AnthonySF on Tue Aug 09, 2005 at 12:51:39 PM PDT
by Superribbie on Tue Aug 09, 2005 at 01:17:01 PM PDT
Either way, settling for Casey is not a huge step down. Bob Casey is a blue-collar, populist Democrat, the kind we're trying to get more of in Washington. Yah, he's socially conservative, but he's not going to whore out to corporations and fuck over unions like the DLC. He may not be perfect for a lot of you, but he's damn good, and he can win in a socially center-right, economically center-left state like Pennsylvania. Remember, his job is to represent Pennsylvanians...he can't exactly come out as a bleeding-heart liberal on all fronts and maintain his popularity.
by FenderT206 on Tue Aug 09, 2005 at 01:18:55 PM PDT
As you nicely illustrate, AnthonySF, many Dems subordinate EVERYTHING to getting folks elected with "D"s after their name. Therefore, one should always support the candidate with the greatest chance of winning. No litmus tests other than a very broad sense of party loyalty.
That's fine. But if you publicly declare that you're willing to sell out any issue to win elections, don't be surprised when those who work on particular issues aren't willing to rubberstamp your partisan commitments.
by GreenSooner on Tue Aug 09, 2005 at 02:25:54 PM PDT
It takes a second to wreck it. It takes time to build.
by lando on Tue Aug 09, 2005 at 02:35:06 PM PDT
This is obviously the degenerate form of the approach kos recommends.
I think this issue is really simple. NARAL exists to promote reproductive rights. Democrats exist to get elected. Democrats' defense of reproductive rights has been increasingly erratic and inconsistent.
In short, the theory that regaining a Democratic majority will safeguard women's health issues requires a fount of optimism I lack, along with NARAL apparently. Especially so if those Senators and Congresspeople we help to elect, whose incumbency often guarantees a long tenure, are anti-choice to begin with.
Here's an example of what kos' partisan prescription may get us on this issue: a 55-45 majority in the Senate for Democrats, but a 40-60 minority for women's health issues. I'll take that over the current situation, but I don't see why NARAL should.
Angie and Bill: Colorado's bright future!
by ubikkibu on Tue Aug 09, 2005 at 02:51:47 PM PDT
by AnthonySF on Tue Aug 09, 2005 at 03:18:23 PM PDT
All anybody is demanding of NARAL is that they understand that a Democratic majority works to their advantage.
Republicans who say they are pro-choice, but are constrained by the Republican party from actively doing anything positive for choice are worse than useless to NARAL. Perhaps someone can write a comic book to help them understand the argument.
by Cheez Whiz on Tue Aug 09, 2005 at 11:17:19 AM PDT
by Colorado Luis on Tue Aug 09, 2005 at 11:33:09 AM PDT
by flo58 on Tue Aug 09, 2005 at 12:00:21 PM PDT
NARAL with this post almost deliberately seem to be trying to divide people. Not that people aren't divided already, but telling people that "certain websites" are promoting the idea of giving up choice, and citing Atrios and Kos as examples, is disingenuous at best, and flat out false at worst. They should know better. Why don't they? Kos and Atrios are NOT what NARAL should be targeting themselves against, what a fucking foolish strategy. For CHRISTS sake there really are people who are working in a coordinated fashion to make choice basically illegel. Stop them, don't make up some shit about bloggers and then tell people to waste their time freeping the comments.
by itsbenj on Tue Aug 09, 2005 at 12:19:31 PM PDT
Please NARAL, and supporters, for the love of God think for two seconds. How fucking difficult is it for NARAL to insist that it is not enough for Pro Choice Republicans like Chafee to use "happy words" like "I am Pro Choice." This is a Trojan Horse.
What the Hell does it mean if he claims to be for choice but votes with a caucus that basically hates "Those Uppity Feminists."
NARAL is heading down a path that will assure it's obsolescence in the near future. This is taking one issuism to the absurd.
Please Langevin jump back in. Only when Harry Reid is the Senate majority leader and Nancy Pelosi runs the house will women's choice truly enjoy protection
When Fascism comes to America it will be wrapped in a flag and carrying a cross - Sinclair Lewis
by Chilipalmer on Tue Aug 09, 2005 at 01:46:52 PM PDT
But it cuts the other way, too. Tearing down NARAL only gives ammunition to our conservative enemies. We need to support NARAL when they are right.
They were wrong to endorse Republicans, but they are right on this issue, and the progressive movement needs to be united.
Kos talks about building a MOVEMENT, and he's right, but we don't build it by telling groups that SHOULD be a part of it to f- off.
I hated Bush before it was cool.
by daveriegel on Tue Aug 09, 2005 at 11:59:06 AM PDT
I'm not sure we should be expected to break out the party hats when NARAL gives the GOP the hammer to pound us with.
If you actually want to build a progressive movement then endorsing the GOP is a dealbreaker in my mind. I really don't think there's any room for that.
I actually find it quite amazing that people here will write 10 anti-DLC rants a day but give NARAL a pass on this. I have looked pretty hard and the only DLC member that ever endorsed a member of the GOP was St Paul, MN Mayor Randy Kelly (Bush/Cheney) in 2004. Even that was the kiss of death for Kelly's political career.
by savvyspy on Tue Aug 09, 2005 at 02:21:05 PM PDT
I think it's amazing that some liberals will praise a Republican who comes our way on an issue--for example, there was some praise of Specter today for asking tough questions of Roberts--but we won't give NARAL a break when they make a powerful statement against Roberts.
I'm in a bad position because I totally agree with the criticisms Kos has made of NARAL... however I think when they are going after Roberts is a bad time to bring it up. Coalition politics is necessary sometimes, and it means we join forces with people we don't always agree with on other issues.
by daveriegel on Tue Aug 09, 2005 at 03:53:35 PM PDT
aside... Your query failed to uncover Zell Miller's membership in the DLC. Who didn't just endorse Bush in '04, he wrote a book about it and spoke at the GOP convention. And then, speaking of former mayors of St Paul, there's former Democrat, Norm Coleman. Who is now a Republican Senator. I've not researched endorsements by DLC members and those two immediately sprang to mind so I hope you'll pardon me if I doubt your 'research' skills.
by colleen on Wed Aug 10, 2005 at 05:18:08 AM PDT
by VirginiaBelle on Wed Aug 10, 2005 at 07:22:21 AM PDT
I refuted it easily. Zell Miller may well be "crazy" but he was also on the DLC's membership list untill he left office and after Zell endorsed Bush and spoke at the GOP convention. And so how (to quote you) "politically stupid" is the DLC? Really, don't bother replying. You disgust me.
by colleen on Wed Aug 10, 2005 at 07:47:37 AM PDT
Really, Colleen, what have I done to earn your outright disgust? You downrate my comments, and respond to what was really just a sorta lighthearted snark with 'You disgust me.'
And yet I'm pro-choice. I'm not a single-issue voter, but were I to run for office, I would be called liberal, not moderate, and would probably have Emily's List support.
So what I have never understood is how that is not enough. I do not throw red meat to the base. I'll admit that. I'm pragmatic, and not ashamed of that. And I think that more needs to be done to appeal to the soft-center on choice issues, which I think has not been done in quite some time. But to me, these are the practical things one does to increase the support for the pro-choice movement. So why is that so god-damned repulsive?
I recognize that you're not the only person who feels this way, but frankly, you're the only one who consistently down-rates my comments, so I'll ask you. And I do hope you will respond.
by VirginiaBelle on Wed Aug 10, 2005 at 07:57:55 AM PDT
They seem to be disinterested in the debate; leave it alone. I'll throw you some tips.
http://cleantechantics.blogspot.com
by mateosf on Wed Aug 10, 2005 at 06:33:14 PM PDT
Do you see the wingnuts up in arms over Pirro?
Isn't this incredibly petty? The problem for anyone concerned about choice, right now, is Republican hegemony. Endorsing Chafee makes that worse, not better. Endorsing a candidate who can beat Santorum makes that better, not worse.
Tactics should serve the strategy. And the strategy should serve the goal. The choice goal is not served by maximizing the number of pushpins on a US Map that stand for "pro-choice Senator." At the moment, and for the foreseeable future, it is served by maximizing the number of Ds.
Come see Karen Tumulty discuss the MSM at Virtually Speaking on July 31st.
by JayAckroyd on Tue Aug 09, 2005 at 02:22:03 PM PDT
by Chilipalmer on Tue Aug 09, 2005 at 11:19:14 AM PDT
Take Back the Democratic Party http://www.lawlessforcongress.com/
by fedupnyc on Tue Aug 09, 2005 at 04:31:30 PM PDT
wide narrow
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