Daily Kos

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  •  No. (3.76 / 13)

    Why should we "get over" the Chafee thing. It is symptomatic of NARALs failure to understand the nature of a two party system.  Until they fix that internal vision deficit, they should be bashed with the "Chafee thing" again and again.

    Hand me down my walking cane, hand me down my hat...

    by Cheez Whiz on Tue Aug 09, 2005 at 11:08:48 AM PDT

    [ Parent ]

    •  Since we're out of the majority (4.00 / 2)

      by 6 votes, every 1 is important.  Why "get over" 1 of the possible toss-ups that we had/have a chance at taking?

      Visit RemoveRepublicans.com and follow every 2006 Senate race.

      by AnthonySF on Tue Aug 09, 2005 at 11:10:49 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  NARAL's ad is aimed at Chafee (3.80 / 5)

        and Maine's two republican senators.  That is where it is supposed to air.  They are applying pressure on those Republican, nominally pro-choice senators.  How much pressure do you think Democrats can apply to them?  Answer: NONE.

        From reading dkos you would think that NARAL single-handedly elected Chafee.  Every time his name is mentioned by Kos or anyone else, there is a mile-long thread of how diabolical or self-defeating NARAL is.  Can we all just hold our tongues about NARAL long enough to take on the real task?  Namely, to out Roberts for the wingnut he is?  PLEASE!

        As for the 1s and 2s, you have never gotten them from me.  I frequently disagree with people here and especially with Kos on this issue, where I believe he has developed a blind spot.  But I am not 5 any more.  I am not going take my toys and leave the playground about this or hit you with ones or twos.

        First they ignore you, then they ridicule you, then they fight you, then you win. -- Gandhi

        by flo58 on Tue Aug 09, 2005 at 11:51:24 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  I think you meant this (none / 0)

          for someone else.  I didn't/don't give out 1's or 2's.

          Visit RemoveRepublicans.com and follow every 2006 Senate race.

          by AnthonySF on Tue Aug 09, 2005 at 12:04:30 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  Sorry. (none / 0)

            I was having so much trouble with the response times that I put the comment all together instead of trying to make separate comments.  It was meant for someone upthread.  

            First they ignore you, then they ridicule you, then they fight you, then you win. -- Gandhi

            by flo58 on Tue Aug 09, 2005 at 12:07:20 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

        •  but if NARAL really wanted to (none / 0)

          pressure Chafee, couldn't they just pull their support?  Do they really think that Chafee is worried about his constituents realizing he's soft on helping maintain choice in America?  The guy doesn't care!
          •  If... (none / 0)

            it is between a pro-choice Republican and pro-life Democrat I could understand why Naral would support the pro-choice candidate.

            However, why would Naral choose a pro-choice Republican over a pro-choice Democrat when the Democratic party supports the right to choose and the republican party does not?

            It would seem to me that if all things are equal Naral should always support the Democrat - it only makes sense.

            Honor bound to defend freedom. Freedom is long-standing army regulations.

            by RichardG on Tue Aug 09, 2005 at 01:20:04 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  No so mysterious (4.00 / 2)

              If you don't reward those who have stood with you in the past, you will convince no one else to stand with you in the future.
            •  That Plus (none / 0)

              There aren't really "Pro-Choice" Republicans in the Senate. None of the so-called pro-choice republicans would ever cross party lines if the GOP needed the votes.

              Chaffee certainly is way too spineless to buck the GOP on anything other than votes that are already in the bag.

              Given that, NARAL wouldn't gain anything by supporting the GOP candidate while even a pro-life democrat would help them because you are never going to get anti-choice legislation from a Democratically controlled congress.

              •  Explain the Leon Holmes vote please (none / 0)

                •  Holmes was confirmed with 51 votes (none / 0)

                  So how does that disprove the premise?

                  The frogurt is also cursed. -8.25, -6.51

                  by Superribbie on Tue Aug 09, 2005 at 03:16:07 PM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

                  •  Leon Holmes (4.00 / 6)

                    Leon Holmes would not have been confirmed without the support of anti-choice Dems. The vote, a little over a year ago, was 51-46. 5 Republicans voted against him, specifically Collins, Snowe, Chafee, Hutchinson and Warner.

                    Six Democrats voted for him Lincoln, Prior, Breaux, Landreiu, Miller and Ben Nelson. The fact of the matter is that anti-choice Democrats have no difficulty voting to confirm judges like Holmes.

                    So I ask again, how do you reconcile your "premise" with the facts that Chaffee is better on these issues than numerous Democrats, particularly when it comes to wing-nut judge confirmations and specific legislation?

                    The Democratic party has a long way to go to earn blanket support on issues like medical privacy, equal rights, etc.

                  •  count the votes (4.00 / 2)

                    Holmes was confirmed with 51 votes

                    Republican who voted against Holmes:
                    Collins
                    Snowe
                    Chafee
                    Kay Bailey Hutchinson
                    John Warner

                    Democrats who voted for that neanderthal piece of crap:
                    Lincoln
                    Prior
                    Breaux
                    Landrieu
                    Ben Nelson
                    Miller

                    Senators who were absent:
                    Kerry
                    Edwards
                    Murkowski

                    So how does that disprove the premise?

                    Do I need to explain further? the 'premise' is crap. Holmes isn't the only only misogynistic judge confirmed by the Vichy Dems. Not by a long shot. He's just a particularly good example to demonstrate that the 'trust us' spin is crap.

        •  That's precisely why their effort is misplaced (none / 1)

          Does it matter whether Roberts is confirmed 55-45 or 52-48? He'll still rest his tush en banc. If NARAL's best solution is that they think they can force a closer loss by endorsing Chaffee, then they really need to suffer a downturn in revenue from the faithful.

          Chaffee's hired BushCo's best to run his re-election campaign. The GOP will do their damnedest to assure that he can cast a meaningless NO vote on Roberts by carefully orchestrating the rest of their Senate faction to walk in lockstep. Then Chaffee can phone his buddies at NARAL, and tell them that he really, really tried ...

          The next fantasy: Obama/Dean (please let it be)

          by wystler on Tue Aug 09, 2005 at 12:22:27 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

    •  Here we go again (3.94 / 19)

      The Democratic Party works to insure that the Pennsylvania senate race is between two anti-choicers by trying to manuever pro-choice Dems out of the primary.  So NARAL retaliates by endorsing a Republican in an election that will be between two pro-choicers.  Not to hard to understand.  Demanding that NARAL toe the party line makes little sense unless the Democrats stop playing around with the idea that maybe they ought to support rolling back women's rights a little just to win some elections.

      Illegal is not a noun

      by Colorado Luis on Tue Aug 09, 2005 at 11:12:13 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  PA Dems maneuvered (3.71 / 7)

        candidates out the way who had a lesser shot of winning.  Casey is the only competitor -- within the PA field, as well as in the rest of the country -- who has been polling above the incumbent the entire time.  And the incumbent is none other than Santorum!  He will be gone in 1 year, and that is a victory.

        Visit RemoveRepublicans.com and follow every 2006 Senate race.

        by AnthonySF on Tue Aug 09, 2005 at 11:15:23 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  Electability? (4.00 / 2)

          Is that an issue of electability?

          Why isn't Chuck Pennachio just as good or better a candidate for Pennsylvanians than Casey?

          John McCain a/k/a John Sidney "Grampy McSame"

          by MRL on Tue Aug 09, 2005 at 11:33:41 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  He may be better (none / 0)

            but he has a 100-1 fundraising deficit to Casey from the get-go.  I like Chuck, and am not calling for him to drop out or anything, but he has a slim-to-none chance of winning, whereas Casey has a 90% chance of winning.  Once we're in the majority, then we can start weeding out the Dem lites.

            Visit RemoveRepublicans.com and follow every 2006 Senate race.

            by AnthonySF on Tue Aug 09, 2005 at 11:40:19 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  excellent (4.00 / 8)

              we'll worry about what they stand for after we've won.

              gosh, now where have i heard that strategy before...

              You can lead an elephant to water but you can't make 'em think.

              by bill in wa on Tue Aug 09, 2005 at 11:44:00 AM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  On this issue -- (4.00 / 2)

                as has been pointed out hundreds of times on this diary alone -- how they stand is irrelevant because if the Dems are in the majority, no anti-choice legislation will be brought forth and judges that are anti-choice can get filibustered.

                Visit RemoveRepublicans.com and follow every 2006 Senate race.

                by AnthonySF on Tue Aug 09, 2005 at 11:49:49 AM PDT

                [ Parent ]

                •  smart plan secret squirrel.. (3.16 / 6)

                  now all you have to do is guarentee that if you elect some of these bozos you actually take power.

                  otherwise, you've just made your position that much more tenious.

                  You can lead an elephant to water but you can't make 'em think.

                  by bill in wa on Tue Aug 09, 2005 at 11:53:36 AM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

                •  Nonsense: Hyde Amendment (1976) (4.00 / 6)

                  The Hyde Amendment is one of the most important pieces of federal anti-choice legislation. It removed federal funding for abortion services. It was passed by both houses of Congress in 1976, when they were both controlled by Democrats.  Although the President who signed it into law was Gerald Ford, a Republican, his decision to do so was largely in response to pressure from Democratic presidential candidate Jimmy Carter who supported the measure and would have made political hay out of it had Ford vetoed the measure.

                  In short, the Democratic commitment to choice has faltered in the past, and it could falter in the future.  The Senate Minority Leader is anti-choice.  Dems are pushing for anti-choice candidates in blue states.  And Democrats talk very publicly about adopting more conservative positions on issues like reproductive freedom. Then, at the drop of a hat, they attack groups like NARAL.

                  Moreover, this issue is not simply about preserving rights,  when, in practice, those rights are becoming harder and harder for women -- especially low-income women -- to excercise.  We need federal policies that positively increase access to contraception and, yes, abortion services. And, unfortunately, the Democrats simply cannot be trusted to do this without a lot of outside pressure from groups like NARAL. More power to them!

                  This nicely summarizes what's wrong with American political life today. (Source)

                  by GreenSooner on Tue Aug 09, 2005 at 02:20:40 PM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

                  •  Wow (none / 0)

                    You are talking about 30 years ago. The make up and policies of the Dems and Republicans has changed dramatically since then. There was no partisan divide on abortion in 1975. Republican were just as likely or more likely to be pro-choice than Republicans then. Gerald Ford was pro-choice. Jimmy Carter was the first President elected with the support of the religious right as a political grouping.
                    •  Absolutely (4.00 / 2)

                      In the last 30 years, BOTH parties have moved to the right.  Now Democrats are seriously talking about abandoning their commitment to reproductive freedom. Nobody is talking about rolling back the Hyde Amendment.

                      This nicely summarizes what's wrong with American political life today. (Source)

                      by GreenSooner on Tue Aug 09, 2005 at 02:53:00 PM PDT

                      [ Parent ]

                  •  Well, then by all means (none / 0)

                    vote for pro-choice Republicans and donate to NARAL -- what can I say?  Or better yet, run for office in a red/swing state as a pro-choice Democrat against a well-funded Republican and see how far that gets you.

                    Visit RemoveRepublicans.com and follow every 2006 Senate race.

                    by AnthonySF on Tue Aug 09, 2005 at 03:18:21 PM PDT

                    [ Parent ]

                    •  Huh? (none / 0)

                      In what version of the universe are Pennsylvania and Rhode Island "red" states?

                      No one is suggesting that staunch choice advocates run in Alabama.  RI and PA ain't Ala., though.

                      John McCain a/k/a John Sidney "Grampy McSame"

                      by MRL on Tue Aug 09, 2005 at 08:24:11 PM PDT

                      [ Parent ]

                      •  Pennsylvania (none / 0)

                        is a swing state.  It was won by our last 2 candidates by less than 3%.  It's liberal in Philly & Pittsburgh, conservative in between.  Hence a moderate like Specter is somewhat popular, but wingers like Santorum trail in the polls.

                        RI is definitely blue blue blue.  Unfortunately half of their Senate representation is GOP.  But the path to 51 goes through Providence, and it seemed as though Langevin had the edge.

                        Visit RemoveRepublicans.com and follow every 2006 Senate race.

                        by AnthonySF on Tue Aug 09, 2005 at 09:55:21 PM PDT

                        [ Parent ]

            •  Stop? (none / 1)

              Perhaps we should stop giving money to Casey and start giving to Chuck?

              This sounds a bit like political expedience.  Not my favorite method of doing things.

              John McCain a/k/a John Sidney "Grampy McSame"

              by MRL on Tue Aug 09, 2005 at 12:38:49 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

          •  Adding to AnthonySF (4.00 / 2)

            He also has statewide name recognition and popularity and experience in elected office.
            •  In other words . . . (none / 0)

              . . . he's more "electable"?

              John McCain a/k/a John Sidney "Grampy McSame"

              by MRL on Tue Aug 09, 2005 at 12:43:11 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  Yes, and that's not a bad thing (none / 0)

                There's a practical nature to campaigns, and being electable shouldn't be a downside. All of these things are excellent reasons why he is a better candidate and why it was smart of the Pennsylvania party to go with him. I hate how being practical is considered a downside by so many.
                •  But . . (none / 1)

                  but what you are saying is a self-fulfilling prophecy.  I don't like Chuck Penachio because he's not "electable."

                  I didn't like Dennis Kucinich, but he said it best:  "if you vote for me, I'm electable."

                  Where is the blogsphere in getting behind him instead of an Anti-Choice democrat in a Blue state?

                  What you are really asking is "what's wrong with winning" and what I'm asking is "what's right about following a guy just becuase he's in the lead" (when you have a chance to affect the lead.

                  But, then again, there hasn't been much leadership in the Democratic party lately . . .

                  John McCain a/k/a John Sidney "Grampy McSame"

                  by MRL on Tue Aug 09, 2005 at 08:20:08 PM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

                  •  That's not what I'm saying (none / 1)

                    I'm talking about logistics. There's more to a campaign then ideals. It's a statewide race in a non-presidential year. Most of the people at the ballot box have not been paying a lot of attention unless you innudate them with ads....which are hella expensive. Hence, fundraising advantages are huge. Name recognition is important as it helps get over the natural advantage of incumbancy. Experience in elected office is important because, well, I like the idea of having prior experience on a resume when I apply for a job. Also, he has volunteers who have worked for him before and know what he is about spread out over the entire state that he can recall. Popularity, people recognize his name and say, hey, I like him and I like his father, as opposed to, who the hell is that?

                    If you vote for me I am electable, but how are you going to get people to vote for you? I've worked on too many campaigns and been in too many field offices to ignore how important the basic logistics are of campaigning. Call me a snob if you want to, but it takes more to win then ideals.

                    Lastly, I hate this argument in regards to the Pennsylvania race because it's sorta like asking "When's the last time you hit your wife?" It assumes that Casey is this really crappy candidate who the only thing he has going for him is that he's "electable", and the assumption is made that the reason everyone says he's electable is because he's pro-life. So the die hard choicers get up in arms because we're saying that you have to be pro-life to be electable. When it has nothing to do with that. Casey is a popular and well-known member of a political dynasty in Pennsylvania. He is the current state treasurer, and by the way, is pretty damn good to labor. Yes, he's pro-life, but there are a myriad of other issues on which he's a great candidate, and I am not a single issue voter. And on top of that, there are all of the above logistical reasons why he is a better candidate. For all your attacks on going with a candidate because they are electable, well, why is being popular and well-funded now a sign that they're a crap candidate who should be opposed?

                  •  PA is not a blue state!! (none / 0)

                    I wish it were but it's purple.

                    And... Casey Jr.'s pro-life father was a very well-liked governor here.

          •  Let's see... (none / 0)

            Name rec. (legacies have an advantage; see Kennedy, Bush)
            Elective office experience
            Campaign experience
            Proven massive statewide popularity (leading vote-getter in both his statewide elections)
            Strong, strong labor ties
            Western PA base (to undercut Santorum's)

            Just a few reasons off the top of my head

            The frogurt is also cursed. -8.25, -6.51

            by Superribbie on Tue Aug 09, 2005 at 12:42:44 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

          •  Let's be realistic (4.00 / 1)

            Choosing Chuck over Casey is not like hypothetically choosing Howard Dean over John Kerry....this is like choosing Al Sharpton over John Kerry. Casey is the most popular politician in Pennsylvania and has statewide campaign experience. Chuck is a college professor who has not held elected government office before. Santorum, although he is a dick who pisses the majority of Pennsylvania off, is a strong and crafty campaigner. Although Chuck would be great if he ever made it to the Senate, you all know and I know that Santorum would hand Chuck his ass on a silver platter. It would not be pretty. Chuck has good intentions but I'm afraid that he simply has too little experience and too little fundraising money to take on a heavyweight like Righteous Rick.

            Either way, settling for Casey is not a huge step down. Bob Casey is a blue-collar, populist Democrat, the kind we're trying to get more of in Washington. Yah, he's socially conservative, but he's not going to whore out to corporations and fuck over unions like the DLC. He may not be perfect for a lot of you, but he's damn good, and he can win in a socially center-right, economically center-left state like Pennsylvania. Remember, his job is to represent Pennsylvanians...he can't exactly come out as a bleeding-heart liberal on all fronts and maintain his popularity.

        •  Exactly (4.00 / 6)

          This is exactly why NARAL cannot sell its soul to the Democratic Party.

          As you nicely illustrate, AnthonySF, many Dems subordinate EVERYTHING to getting folks elected with "D"s after their name.  Therefore, one should always support the candidate with the greatest chance of winning. No litmus tests other than a very broad sense of party loyalty.  

          That's fine. But if you publicly declare that you're willing to sell out any issue to win elections, don't be surprised when those who work on particular issues aren't willing to rubberstamp your partisan commitments.

          This nicely summarizes what's wrong with American political life today. (Source)

          by GreenSooner on Tue Aug 09, 2005 at 02:25:54 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  Totally missing the point (3.00 / 2)

            The problem with NARAL's endorsement of Chafee is its counterproductive -- it hurts the cause of abortion rights because it adds to the Republican majority.  Even though he is pro-life, if Casey is elected, it will further the cause of abortion rights because the Democrats (who are mostly pro-choice) will be closer to the majority. Supporting Casey and not Chafee is not about just winning -- its the best way to protect abortion rights.  Supporting Casey is not in anyway a sellout.   NARAL simply can't see the forest for the trees.

            It takes a second to wreck it. It takes time to build.

            by lando on Tue Aug 09, 2005 at 02:35:06 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

          •  Good analysis (4.00 / 5)

            ...one should always support the candidate with the greatest chance of winning. No litmus tests other than a very broad sense of party loyalty.

            This is obviously the degenerate form of the approach kos recommends.

            I think this issue is really simple.  NARAL exists to promote reproductive rights.  Democrats exist to get elected.  Democrats' defense of reproductive rights has been increasingly erratic and inconsistent.

            In short, the theory that regaining a Democratic majority will safeguard women's health issues requires a fount of optimism I lack, along with NARAL apparently.  Especially so if those Senators and Congresspeople we help to elect, whose incumbency often guarantees a long tenure, are anti-choice to begin with.

            Here's an example of what kos' partisan prescription may get us on this issue: a 55-45 majority in the Senate for Democrats, but a 40-60 minority for women's health issues.  I'll take that over the current situation, but I don't see why NARAL should.

            Angie and Bill: Colorado's bright future!

            by ubikkibu on Tue Aug 09, 2005 at 02:51:47 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

          •  I'm glad you agree. (none / 0)

            But for the record, I don't think Casey is "selling out."  He just personally believes abortion is wrong.

            Visit RemoveRepublicans.com and follow every 2006 Senate race.

            by AnthonySF on Tue Aug 09, 2005 at 03:18:23 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

      •  Whatever. (3.75 / 12)

        Demanding that NARAL toe the party line makes little sense unless the Democrats stop playing around with the idea that maybe they ought to support rolling back women's rights a little just to win some elections.

        All anybody is demanding of NARAL is that they understand that a Democratic majority works to their advantage.

        Republicans who say they are pro-choice, but are constrained by the Republican party from actively doing anything positive for choice are worse than useless to NARAL.  Perhaps someone can write a comic book to help them understand the argument.

        Hand me down my walking cane, hand me down my hat...

        by Cheez Whiz on Tue Aug 09, 2005 at 11:17:19 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  Who decides? (4.00 / 17)

          I think it is very rational for NARAL to look at the post-election debate among certain elements in the Democratic Party -- including a lot of conversation on blogs like this one -- and conclude that the party is ready to start embracing restrictions on reproductive freedom as a way to win elections.  Therefore, a shot across the bow in Rhode Island can be considered smart politics.  (They obviously got under Kos' skin.)  To tell them that they just don't understand what is good for them is condescending in the extreme.  

          Illegal is not a noun

          by Colorado Luis on Tue Aug 09, 2005 at 11:33:09 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  Thanks for that! (none / 0)

            If you think NARAL has not heard the drum beat against what they did with Chafee, you are certifiable.  The only people who CAN'T hear it are in Siberia.  

            First they ignore you, then they ridicule you, then they fight you, then you win. -- Gandhi

            by flo58 on Tue Aug 09, 2005 at 12:00:21 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

          •  I think you're largely imagining this (3.75 / 4)

            remember that Daily Kos is heavilly freeped, and every time, yes every time the subject comes up, people come around talking all kinds of nonsense to stir things up.  I have not heard one single prominent Democrat call for a relaxing or acceptance of restrictions on choice who didn't already hold that belief.  

            NARAL with this post almost deliberately seem to be trying to divide people.  Not that people aren't divided already, but telling people that "certain websites" are promoting the idea of giving up choice, and citing Atrios and Kos as examples, is disingenuous at best, and flat out false at worst.  They should know better.  Why don't they?  Kos and Atrios are NOT what NARAL should be targeting themselves against, what a fucking foolish strategy.  For CHRISTS sake there really are people who are working in a coordinated fashion to make choice basically illegel.  Stop them, don't make up some shit about bloggers and then tell people to waste their time freeping the comments.  

          •  "Slosh Slosh Slosh" (4.00 / 1)

            <The Sound of a Feminist wading back in to this controversy>

            Please NARAL, and supporters, for the love of God think for two seconds.  How fucking difficult is it for NARAL to insist that it is not enough for Pro Choice Republicans like Chafee to use "happy words" like "I am Pro Choice." This is a Trojan Horse.

            What the Hell does it mean if he claims to be for choice but votes with a caucus that basically hates "Those Uppity Feminists."  

            NARAL is heading down a path that will assure it's obsolescence in the near future.  This is taking one issuism to the absurd.

            Please Langevin jump back in.  Only when Harry Reid is the Senate majority leader and Nancy Pelosi runs the house will women's choice truly enjoy protection  

            When Fascism comes to America it will be wrapped in a flag and carrying a cross - Sinclair Lewis

            by Chilipalmer on Tue Aug 09, 2005 at 01:46:52 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

        •  It cuts both ways (4.00 / 8)

          All anybody is demanding of NARAL is that they understand that a Democratic majority works to their advantage.

          But it cuts the other way, too.  Tearing down NARAL only gives ammunition to our conservative enemies.  We need to support NARAL when they are right.  

          They were wrong to endorse Republicans, but they are right on this issue, and the progressive movement needs to be united.

          Kos talks about building a MOVEMENT, and he's right, but we don't build it by telling groups that SHOULD be a part of it to f- off.  

          I hated Bush before it was cool.

          by daveriegel on Tue Aug 09, 2005 at 11:59:06 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  Retract the Endorsement (4.00 / 1)

            I would imagine if NARAL was interested in building a movement they could start by not endorsing the Republican Party that is trying to destroy it.

            I'm not sure we should be expected to break out the party hats when NARAL gives the GOP the hammer to pound us with.

            If you actually want to build a progressive movement then endorsing the GOP is a dealbreaker in my mind. I really don't think there's any room for that.

            I actually find it quite amazing that people here will write 10 anti-DLC rants a day but give NARAL a pass on this. I have looked pretty hard and the only DLC member that ever endorsed a member of the GOP was St Paul, MN Mayor Randy Kelly (Bush/Cheney) in 2004. Even that was the kiss of death for Kelly's political career.

            •  Isn't there a critical difference? (none / 0)

              The DLC's job is partisan... NARAL is an issue advocacy group.  NARAL's job is not to build the Democratic party...

              I think it's amazing that some liberals will praise a Republican who comes our way on an issue--for example, there was some praise  of Specter today for asking tough questions of Roberts--but we won't give NARAL a break when they make a powerful statement against Roberts.

              I'm in a bad position because I totally agree with the criticisms Kos has made of NARAL... however I think when they are going after Roberts is a bad time to bring it up.  Coalition politics is necessary sometimes, and it means we join forces with people we don't always agree with on other issues.

              I hated Bush before it was cool.

              by daveriegel on Tue Aug 09, 2005 at 03:53:35 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

            •  The silliness of comparing the DLC and NARAL (none / 0)

              I have looked pretty hard and the only DLC member that ever endorsed a member of the GOP was St Paul, MN Mayor Randy Kelly (Bush/Cheney) in 2004

              aside...
              Your query failed to uncover Zell Miller's membership in the DLC. Who didn't just endorse Bush in '04, he wrote a book about it and spoke at the GOP convention. And then, speaking of former mayors of St Paul, there's  former Democrat, Norm Coleman. Who is now a Republican Senator.
              I've not researched endorsements by DLC members and those two immediately sprang to mind so I hope you'll pardon me if I doubt your 'research' skills.

              •  Yes, but Zell Miller is crazy (none / 1)

                You shouldn't talk bad of crazy people. They can't help it. They're crazy.
                •  The gentleman made a ridiculous claim. (none / 0)

                  Yes, but Zell Miller is crazy

                  I refuted it easily.
                  Zell Miller may well be "crazy" but he was also on the DLC's membership list untill he left office and after Zell endorsed Bush and spoke at the GOP convention.
                  And so how (to quote you) "politically stupid" is the DLC?
                  Really, don't bother replying. You disgust me.

                  •  I don't think very many people will defend the DLC (none / 1)

                    On this thread or any other on this site.

                    Really, Colleen, what have I done to earn your outright disgust? You downrate my comments, and respond to what was really just a sorta lighthearted snark with 'You disgust me.'

                    And yet I'm pro-choice. I'm not a single-issue voter, but were I to run for office, I would be called liberal, not moderate, and would probably have Emily's List support.

                    So what I have never understood is how that is not enough. I do not throw red meat to the base. I'll admit that. I'm pragmatic, and not ashamed of that. And I think that more needs to be done to appeal to the soft-center on choice issues, which I think has not been done in quite some time. But to me, these are the practical things one does to increase the support for the pro-choice movement. So why is that so god-damned repulsive?

                    I recognize that you're not the only person who feels this way, but frankly, you're the only one who consistently down-rates my comments, so I'll ask you. And I do hope you will respond.

                    •  Leave it alone VirginiaBelle, (none / 0)

                      There seem to be a bunch of these types on this thread who are going around troll-rating all of us who agree with Kos on the strategy. I've gotten troll rated by a bunch of these folks for making the same kind of arguments.

                      They seem to be disinterested in the debate; leave it alone. I'll throw you some tips.

                      http://cleantechantics.blogspot.com

                      by mateosf on Wed Aug 10, 2005 at 06:33:14 PM PDT

                      [ Parent ]

      •  Retaliation is the problem (none / 0)

        Why would NARAL retaliate against Democrats?  Why would NARAL be fighting that battle?  

        Do you see the wingnuts up in arms over Pirro?  

        Isn't this incredibly petty?  The problem for anyone concerned about choice, right now, is Republican hegemony.  Endorsing Chafee makes that worse, not better.  Endorsing a candidate who can beat Santorum makes that better, not worse.

        Tactics should serve the strategy.  And the strategy should serve the goal. The choice goal is not served by maximizing the number of pushpins on a US Map that stand for "pro-choice Senator."  At the moment, and for the foreseeable future, it is served by maximizing the number of Ds.

        Come see Karen Tumulty discuss the MSM at Virtually Speaking on July 31st.

        by JayAckroyd on Tue Aug 09, 2005 at 02:22:03 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

    •  Huzzah!!!! (none / 0)

      That is all.

      When Fascism comes to America it will be wrapped in a flag and carrying a cross - Sinclair Lewis

      by Chilipalmer on Tue Aug 09, 2005 at 11:19:14 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  This Is Silly (none / 0)

      The notion that a few bloggers on Kos know better than NARAL how to protect choice is laughable.

      Take Back the Democratic Party http://www.lawlessforcongress.com/

      by fedupnyc on Tue Aug 09, 2005 at 04:31:30 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

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