Daily Kos

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  •  here's my problem.... (4.00 / 3)

    i might actually be convinced if it didn't sound so much like a demand for "do as i say and not as i do".

    "I'm constantly amazed at how unwilling some bloggers are to hold their fire and allow for the benefit of the doubt, and instead feel the need to generate heat for their blogs by taking shots at others."

    i think that's my problem.... it feels like i'm being told to suck it up and welcome kos's allies (and yours?) while my allies get mocked.

    for example: where is the big tent for the "hippy types"?  why not respect - as well as disagreement - instead of "I'll have nothing to do with any of the anti-war rallies planned in the near term (and the crazy cast of characters that seek to inject their unrelated own pet causes into the proceedings)." where's the benefit of the doubt in this?

    i tell you what - you welcome my allies (who by the way i think ought to be yours too), and i'll suck it up and welcome yours.  that way the dem tent will be even bigger, and it will also be fairer. how 'bout it?

    by selise on Mon Sep 19, 2005 at 05:50:32 PM PDT

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    •  pragmatism (none / 0)

      I think the critical objective point being rendered is what is effective in the contemporary political environment. Having first become involved through anti-war organizing in 2002, I find it hard to see the effectiveness of most of those organizations at either stopping the war or winning elections or helping out their communities.

      There's surely some positive ripples from such a large-scale human effort as a protest that draws millions worldwide. People build skills, make connections, etc. But on the other hand, people also burn out, deplete their savings, return to relative inaction after the catharsis of protest, ets. Is mass-protest an effective use of the expended energy, money and time? Looking at the past three years, I have serious doubts about that.

      By contrast, you'll note that the front-page-boys here were very supportive of Cindy Sheehan. That's not because she wasn't an "anti-war hippy." It's because she was effective.

      Likewise, you can see that the attacks on pro-choice and pro-human-rights lobbies stem from reservations about their effectiveness, specifically when they support Republicans who do their causes a disservice.

      There are legitimate concerns about what, in the end, to sacrifice on the altar of pragmatism. However, that's unfortunately not what the debate is about. It would be a much more interesting (and effective, natch) discussion to have, I think. But we have to get past a lot of personal and identity-related bullshit (plus who knows how much historical baggage) before we can really get into that.

      And so the sparks will continue to fly...

      Me | My Work | Future Majority

      by Outlandish Josh on Mon Sep 19, 2005 at 06:30:02 PM PDT

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      •  Good point. (none / 0)

        And where have you been, anyway?

        Waste more of your day at The Next Hurrah.

        by Kagro X on Mon Sep 19, 2005 at 06:49:59 PM PDT

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      •  my problem isn't the disagreement.... (none / 1)

        outlandish josh - my problem isn't the disagreement - it's the mocking and dismissing and being oh-so-sure that there is nothing to learn from ..... (fill in the blank).

        btw, nothing in your post bothers me in the slightest... i'd be happy to have the kind of discussion you describe.  but, that takes mutual respect.... something i haven't seen enough of.

        by selise on Mon Sep 19, 2005 at 08:56:24 PM PDT

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        •  under pressure (none / 0)

          but, that takes mutual respect.... something i haven't seen enough of.

          I can see where you're coming from. I think one of the problems we face on the left is that our loosing momentum creates increased pressure to fight back, to win. Add to that our lack of experience working together and some long-standing interpersonal beef, and it's not surprising how things have gotten ugly from time to time.

          When I was writing that I thought of my experience as a kid playing sports, how the pressure of being behind in the 9th inning could cause the team to crack up. But also how sometimes the circumstances got us playing together like never before.

          I also think of other times there has been a lot of disagreement, like during primary season. I think then things were better in some ways because people understood that although they were opposing one another, it was part of a structured process and a larger effort and that they would still work together when the time came.

          I'd recommend people who are upset with current Dem attitudes and performance get involved in the primaries. It's a place where you can really make a difference, and it sure as hell beats waiting for the general and trying to figure out whether or not you can live with casting your vote.

          Me | My Work | Future Majority

          by Outlandish Josh on Tue Sep 20, 2005 at 04:07:24 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

      •  responding to your point.... (none / 1)

        for me pragmatism is about what do i think is the best way for me to spend my time? of all the things i could do, what will be the most effective and what do i enjoy the most?  it sounds silly, but i think this is a marathon and not a sprint...i don't want to burn out again.

        i don't think pragmatism is about what i think others should be doing.  they have their own analysis and limits and strengths.  i only draw the line on not causing or risking others to be hurt. that's a value issue.  i don't draw the line of issues of style. and that's a value too - one of inclusiveness.  see, i think we have to model the kind of world we want to create.

        and, i think it is very difficult to tell what i going to be helpful... that is why i welcome anyone who shares my values and is willing to work for them.  solidarity.

        and here's a little true story that daniel ellsberg tells... he had already come to be against the vietnam war, but he didn't know what he could do about it.  then he saw these kids participating in civil disobediance and getting arrested.... and it made him think - is there anything useful he could do if HE was willing to get arrested?  and that is how we got the pentagon papers. (and probably how we got rid of nixon).

        by selise on Mon Sep 19, 2005 at 09:21:31 PM PDT

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        •  nice (none / 0)

          here's a little true story that daniel ellsberg tells... he had already come to be against the vietnam war, but he didn't know what he could do about it.  then he saw these kids participating in civil disobediance and getting arrested.... and it made him think - is there anything useful he could do if HE was willing to get arrested?  and that is how we got the pentagon papers.

          That's a pretty fantastic example of how important unintended consequences can be. Thanks.

          I don't know about keeping your opinions of what other people are doing to yourself though. Clearly I'd stop way short of trying to interfere with anyone else's non-violent activism. We're all free to exercise our rights -- whether that's to have a big anti-war march or to voice our opinion that having such a march is of questionable merit -- and this is good.

          I think a broad discussion about strategy and what works and what doesn't is vital. There are more and less respectful/diplomatic ways to get this conversation going, but one thing I've found is that it can be awfully hard to break through to people who have been operating in one mode or for one cause for a long time. Folks get to be set in their ways, and sometimes I think there might be value to shock, to rocking the boat, to stirring up trouble.

          Me | My Work | Future Majority

          by Outlandish Josh on Tue Sep 20, 2005 at 04:14:03 PM PDT

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          •  discussion vs put-downs (none / 0)

            outlandish josh,

            certainly i'm not trying to say that you (or anyone) should keep your opinions to yourself.... as you've shown here - you are perfectly able to state your opinions while being open to the opinion of others.

            so i wasn't objecting to your disagreement (and shocking people to get their attention isn't a problem either) - my objection is to the put-downs and the mocking.   that's not the way to get a discussion going - and it certainly isn't the way to get people to rethink their tactics.  indeed, i think it is actually  destructive.  anyway,  i'd much prefer introspection, discussion (of values AND effectiveness) and a serious study of social movements as you have done.

            and it is particularly irksome to have my allies (who share my values, if not my prefered style) mocked while i'm being instructed to support someone who doesn't share my values.

            anyway, thanks for the thoughtful responses.  you and kanga

            by selise on Tue Sep 20, 2005 at 07:07:32 PM PDT

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    •  Does it? (none / 0)

      Does it sound like "do as I say and not as I do?"

      What do I do?

      Waste more of your day at The Next Hurrah.

      by Kagro X on Mon Sep 19, 2005 at 06:51:37 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

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