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  •  responding to your point.... (none / 1)

    for me pragmatism is about what do i think is the best way for me to spend my time? of all the things i could do, what will be the most effective and what do i enjoy the most?  it sounds silly, but i think this is a marathon and not a sprint...i don't want to burn out again.

    i don't think pragmatism is about what i think others should be doing.  they have their own analysis and limits and strengths.  i only draw the line on not causing or risking others to be hurt. that's a value issue.  i don't draw the line of issues of style. and that's a value too - one of inclusiveness.  see, i think we have to model the kind of world we want to create.

    and, i think it is very difficult to tell what i going to be helpful... that is why i welcome anyone who shares my values and is willing to work for them.  solidarity.

    and here's a little true story that daniel ellsberg tells... he had already come to be against the vietnam war, but he didn't know what he could do about it.  then he saw these kids participating in civil disobediance and getting arrested.... and it made him think - is there anything useful he could do if HE was willing to get arrested?  and that is how we got the pentagon papers. (and probably how we got rid of nixon).

    by selise on Mon Sep 19, 2005 at 09:21:31 PM PDT

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    •  nice (none / 0)

      here's a little true story that daniel ellsberg tells... he had already come to be against the vietnam war, but he didn't know what he could do about it.  then he saw these kids participating in civil disobediance and getting arrested.... and it made him think - is there anything useful he could do if HE was willing to get arrested?  and that is how we got the pentagon papers.

      That's a pretty fantastic example of how important unintended consequences can be. Thanks.

      I don't know about keeping your opinions of what other people are doing to yourself though. Clearly I'd stop way short of trying to interfere with anyone else's non-violent activism. We're all free to exercise our rights -- whether that's to have a big anti-war march or to voice our opinion that having such a march is of questionable merit -- and this is good.

      I think a broad discussion about strategy and what works and what doesn't is vital. There are more and less respectful/diplomatic ways to get this conversation going, but one thing I've found is that it can be awfully hard to break through to people who have been operating in one mode or for one cause for a long time. Folks get to be set in their ways, and sometimes I think there might be value to shock, to rocking the boat, to stirring up trouble.

      Me | My Work | Future Majority

      by Outlandish Josh on Tue Sep 20, 2005 at 04:14:03 PM PDT

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      •  discussion vs put-downs (none / 0)

        outlandish josh,

        certainly i'm not trying to say that you (or anyone) should keep your opinions to yourself.... as you've shown here - you are perfectly able to state your opinions while being open to the opinion of others.

        so i wasn't objecting to your disagreement (and shocking people to get their attention isn't a problem either) - my objection is to the put-downs and the mocking.   that's not the way to get a discussion going - and it certainly isn't the way to get people to rethink their tactics.  indeed, i think it is actually  destructive.  anyway,  i'd much prefer introspection, discussion (of values AND effectiveness) and a serious study of social movements as you have done.

        and it is particularly irksome to have my allies (who share my values, if not my prefered style) mocked while i'm being instructed to support someone who doesn't share my values.

        anyway, thanks for the thoughtful responses.  you and kanga

        by selise on Tue Sep 20, 2005 at 07:07:32 PM PDT

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