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  •  somebody PLEASE explain to me.... (4.00 / 11)

    why was he detained?  can anyone detain anyone for anything?  under what legal basis can they cuff him, if he broke no laws?  

    anyone with expertise in this field?  can anyone--in layman's terms--explain what gave the MPs the right to cuff him if he hadn't broken any laws?

    thnx

    Republican recruitment for the 82nd Chairborne at an all-time high...

    by topicalstorm on Fri Sep 09, 2005 at 12:52:50 PM PDT

    [ Parent ]

    •  That is a good question (4.00 / 7)

      Why was he detained in the first place?? He hasn't broken any law..Look, maybe he should contact a First Amendment lawyer and see whether he has a case against the goverment for harrassing him illegally.
      •  Bush is a dictator- look at Padilla (4.00 / 6)

        Bush will detain anyone he damn well pleases, and if he feels like making up some secret charges, you will be thrown in jail until the "war on terra" is over.  And Dictator Bush will decide when the war is over.

        Will Bush appoint himself dictator for life?  That could well be the end result if the 4th Court of Appeals decision is upheld by the Supreme Scum.

        What would stop Bush from declaring that it was just too dangerous to hold the 2008 election?  Surely not Joe Lieberman, he would just continue to kiss Bush and confirm incompetent jerks like Mike Brown.

        •  Considering his popularity (none / 1)

          I wouldn't think that would stand.  Regardless of how it sometimes seems, we do not live in a 3rd rate Bannana Republic, and people do NOT have to answer to him.  He would need to build a strong and loyal force of well-armed men to enforce his will, and frankly I think he's been so busy sending them off to be slaughtered in Iraq that their loyalty to him is hanging by the thread of their oath and damn little else.

          If he were not bound by the 2 term limit, I'd say we could expect an election-rigging in 2008, but the Republicans themselves were so outraged that a liberal would take office and impede their rollback of the New Deal for almost 16 years straight that they may have cut off their own noses to spite their face in amending the constitution to limit Presidential terms.

          Warned you we tried. Listen you did not. Now screwed we all are.

          by slippytoad on Fri Sep 09, 2005 at 04:02:31 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

      •  I'd go with the Fourth (none / 0)

        Amendment IV.  The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by Oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized.

        This was not a 'reasonable' seizure because there was no probable cause, as the MPs freely acknowledged, and no warrant was issued.

      •  If martial law... (none / 0)

        ... was declared in the area, I believe that the troops can do what they wish.

        Serious grey area, however. I'm no expert.

        Do you have a child? Will you send her to the war?... anon

        by andreww on Fri Sep 09, 2005 at 05:42:14 PM PDT

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        •  We are in America (none / 1)

          In America, there is no such thing as martial law.

          Show me a man trying to enforce martial law in America, and I will show you a foreign invader or a traitor to the Republic.

        •  Posse comitas (4.00 / 2)

          prohibits US soldiers from excersizing any police powers, martial law or no.

          Otherwise the US would be a police state.

          Is Cheney  telling us something?

        •  Martial law (none / 1)

          was NOT declared. I wish people would stop saying this.

          We talked about this in my law school class the other day. Our professor talked about how there was a press conference with everybody, and they were very careful NOT to declare martial law.

          So the dude should not have been detained. Full stop.

    •  It's not always projection (4.00 / 3)

      Sometimes they really do believe that the way they are is the only way people can be.

      What I'm getting at is this: the police had reason to believe that this guy was a threat to the vice president, because it is obviously impossible to express disagreement or dissent without some act of violence.

      Jumping on the politicalcompass.org bandwagon: (-3.63, -3.03) - Does that make me part of the right wing here?

      by someone else on Fri Sep 09, 2005 at 01:06:27 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  To intimidate him. (4.00 / 7)

      The corporate media are destroying progressive Democrats. The Clintons are destroying the Democratic Party.

      by lecsmith on Fri Sep 09, 2005 at 01:07:58 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  we have a winning entry n/t (none / 0)

        I lost my faith in nihilism

        by PanzerMensch on Fri Sep 09, 2005 at 01:16:09 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

      •  Of course. (none / 1)

        But what we are doing here is trying to look into their sick black minds and determine what their excuse was for detaining him.  

        I hated Bush before it was cool.

        by daveriegel on Fri Sep 09, 2005 at 02:21:14 PM PDT

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        •  they apparently don't think they need an excuse (none / 0)

          When Cheney snarled, the Secret Service ordered the Nat'l Guard guys ( or Army MP's - whatever) to get information on the citizen. Our officers used to contact citizens and fill out info on them (Called a FI card) in my police dept. days. (Field Interrogation)  That info was very like turned over to the Secret Service dudes, who enter it into a data bank of people considered a threat to the Pres or VP.  'Tis the law.  Once, when Bush I was Pres, and I was working police dept. dispatch - an angry old man threw his shoe through his OWN TV while watching one of Bush one's speeches.  Well, he harmed no one except his own TV,but his neighbor called the cops, due to the noise.  The Police Lt. in charge of the shift reported this to the Secret Service.  The poor old man in question could hardly walk, let alone threaten anyone.  But he was put on the Sec Service watch list.  Bummer

           The handcuffing thing-y is another kettle of fish, maybe the troops thought the guy would go off on them.

          On a planetary scale, habitat and life are interchangeable.

          by libbys mom on Fri Sep 09, 2005 at 08:53:17 PM PDT

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    •  Here's hoping... (none / 1)

      ...he got the names of every person involved in detaining him. Every one of them belongs in jail. If that includes Cheney, so much the better.
    •  I'm sure they have (none / 0)

      plenty of excuses for cuffing; they can claim they thought he could be a threat to the VP, maybe even claim he's a terrorist, disturbing the peace, hell, they'll make something up, play the martial law card.  

      Too bad Cheney wasn't cuffed when he said it.

    •  Checking (3.50 / 4)

      for criminal status, pretty standard to detain while checking. If he had anything outstanding im sure it would have been played out different -"Fox news reports parking ticket hooligan accosts VP and is detained and arrested".  Guess he was clean.  
      •  Police can't arrest someone to check on their (none / 1)

        criminal status.  A brief stop that does not place someone in custody (as handcuffs do) to ask someone to identify themselves is permissible if you have reasonable suspicion that a crime was committed.  But, police can't just arrest you first, without having probable cause, and find out of they have anything on you second.

        "Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities" -- Voltaire

        by ohwilleke on Fri Sep 09, 2005 at 04:21:21 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  Probable cause was the "outburst" (none / 1)

          Some of you people seem to be shocked to find gambling in Casablanca. I know I could get troll rated for not towing the line here, but this is standard operating procedure for anyone cops suspect "might" become "violent." Their standards for this are extremely low, but this is GW Bush's America and we no longer hold any truths to be self-evident and, while we may all be equal, some are more equal than others. I know that this shouldn't be able to happen but it does all the time (hell, just watch an episode of Cops). I assume also that the Vice President is held to a higher standard and that anyone "making threatens" or "verbal intimidation" against the VP would be enough for the S.S. (are those initials coincidence? anyone else ever wonder about that?) to detain the guy. I really don't see this guy's case as exceptional except that he insulted our President's boss in front of the media for all the world to hear, and shattered the bubble around the administration. We need to build this guy a new house- right next to Trent Lott's maybe?!!!
          •  That simply is not probable cause. (4.00 / 2)

            Heckling public officials is common.  It also isn't probable cause and isn't a threat, particular as we know what was said, the manner in which it was said, and the time that elapsed between him saying it and the arrest.

            Just because a law enforcement officer or MP thinks someone "might" become "violent" doesn't mean that they have probable cause.  The probable cause you need is that a crime has already been committed.  We don't live in Minority Report land.  You can't arrest or search someone because you have a hunch that they might commit a crime in the future.  Every cop and secret service agent has this drilled into their heads and knows the rules.  MPs could be simply ignorant (I very much doubt that the MPs were acting at the behest of the Secret Service).

            Your assumption about higher standards and what is enough is, quite simply, wrong.

            "Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities" -- Voltaire

            by ohwilleke on Fri Sep 09, 2005 at 05:55:29 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  Regarding the "arrest"... (2.50 / 2)

              absolutely no story here.. move along.  NO is a disaster zone, and if the MP's temporarily handcuff the guy to get a statement, big deal.  They told him no crime had been commited, and he was free to go.  Leave it at that.  The initial story is great, but let's expose the administration on the real ammo.
    •  c'mon guys (4.00 / 3)

      It's reasonable for the FBI to detain the guy just to make sure he's not off his rocker.  He's a huge hero to me, but nothing the government did seems unreasonable.  There have been many assassination attempts over the years and they had an obligation to check him out.
      •  I disagree to an extent. (4.00 / 4)

        They did not have to cuff him.  They could have done a quick stop & search (with Dr. Marble's consent) & asked him some questions, but there was no need to slap him in handcuffs.  That was extreme.  Especially since he was no longer in the vicinity of the VP at the time.
        •  Even this... (3.90 / 10)

          ...shows how much our sense of basic freedoms has been eroded. Being pissed off at the Vice President and expressing it (without verbal threats) should not be cause for even a stop and search. It is free speech, period. If you're going to have MPs of the SS snooping into your life for expressing it, that's intimidation, and it is not free anymore.
      •  I disagree (4.00 / 3)

        Shouting an obscentity at the VP is not worthy of cuffs. I am reminded of the woman who shouted at Clinton on the beach in CA after Monica, the Secret Service just stood between her and him but didn't arrest her.

        you scratch a redneck and you will find a liberal underneath.....

        by Schtu on Fri Sep 09, 2005 at 02:28:49 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

    •  SS might have probable cause to detain someone who (3.50 / 2)

      "assaulted" the Veep (yes, derogatory speech is assault)for questioning to determine whether the person posed some sort of real danger.

      What I can't figure out was why the SS sent some National Guard guy to do their work for them.  Short staffed on that detail, perhaps?

      Fact is, this sort of thing is totally outside the jurisdiction of a Guardsman, who wasn't deputized for that sort of "investigative" work.  The detention of the good Doctor was totally unlawful, as far as I can see, and a misuse of the Guard, and an abuse of authority by the SS supervisor.

      Really disgusting that this is happening here -- the US has become the world's most powerful banana republic.

      •  That's exactly what I don't get. (none / 1)

        Why did the NG approach him? Who gave them their orders? Where they taking matters into their own hands?
      •  Derogatory speech is not assault. (4.00 / 3)

        An assault is a threat to harm someone (if you want to be picky about it) and battery is actually doing it.  Modern English includes both threats to harm and harming someone as assaults.

        But, simply saying something derogatory is not an assault.

        You can question anyone if they are willing to speak to you, but you can't arrest them in order to get them to speak to you without probable cause to believe that they have committed a crime.

        "Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities" -- Voltaire

        by ohwilleke on Fri Sep 09, 2005 at 04:19:16 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  yeah, I want to be picky about it (none / 0)

          and you did a real good job of picking the nits

          assault is saying you will do violence, and battery is actually doing it

          Dr. Marble simply suggested (in the common vernacular) that Mr Cheney fornicate himself. It might not be legal in Mississippi, but I think it's still legal in Lousianna, and it must be legal in Washington DC, right ???

    •  One word (4.00 / 2)

      Intimidation.

      Its how they get their info. I learned at a young 17 when read my miranda rights in my driveway for a crime that happened to the next door appliance store. Come to find out 5$ was stolen from their petty cash, most likely an inside job. That did not prevent an officer from showing up on my door step during a graduation half day to read me my rights. I remember being pissed, telling him my rights, and then he looked at me like I was getting too uppity, so I piped down a little, gave yes/no answers, then told him to leave my property. He intimidated my younger brother before I had got home, then hid around the block. Right when he was leaving my mom pulled up. He got an earful in the street as he blocked traffic and was forced to hear my mom give him a 'new one'.

      "Why quit our own to stand upon foreign ground?" -George Washington

      by House on Fri Sep 09, 2005 at 03:48:29 PM PDT

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    •  To play Devil's Advocate . . . (none / 0)

      If I had to defend the arresting individuals, I would argue that they had arrested him because they had probable cause to believe that he had committed the petty offense of disorderly conduct, and that they are entitled to qualified immunity to the extent that this case is in a gray area.

      I don't really think that is what their motives were.  And, the fact that they released him in fairly short order, suggests that they were really trying to intimidate him based on his speech, or didn't know that it isn't against the law to insult the Vice President.  But, that would be their strongest argument.

      "Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities" -- Voltaire

      by ohwilleke on Fri Sep 09, 2005 at 04:10:06 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  why wasn't Cheney detained? (none / 0)

        IF detaining someone for using the F-word in a satirical manner is a crime why isn't Cheney in jail?
      •  Looks Like.. (none / 0)

        Looks to me like the grunts on the ground held the guy for the minimum amount of time so they could go back and tell the Veep, "yeah, we cuffed him, we checked him out, we couldn't hold him."
        Believe me, when the cops cuff a guy for only 20 minutes  and are corteous to him in the meantime...they're going through the motions, and not with any enthusiasm.

        I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it.

        by JDRhoades on Fri Sep 09, 2005 at 07:22:30 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

    •  institutional paranoia's/devil's advocacy (none / 0)

      I have a hard time believing people are surprised that the Secret Service detained him to find out who he was and what he was all about.
      •  This doesn't sound like Secret Service MO. (none / 1)

        The Secret Service doesn't carry rifles as a general rule.  They are also quite well trained regarding what they can and cannot do.  They come to someone's home or business, obtain consent to speak with them in an intimidating way, and ask questions.

        "Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities" -- Voltaire

        by ohwilleke on Fri Sep 09, 2005 at 04:23:00 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  Honestly, though, (none / 1)

          I'd think that someone who had lost everything and was probably majorly p.o.'d at Cheney would be worth their investigating--at least from their perspective.  And it's entirely plausible that Cheney's Secret Service detail had local sheriffs or whoever go talk to the guy, because they knew who he was and where to find him.  

          Considering the possible 'explosive' circumstances, it's entirely possible that the people sent to question him felt it might be necessary to restrain him in order to make him see how serious they were?

          Oh, my God.  Did I just defend (by association) Cheney?

          ::flails::

    •  on detainment and arrest (none / 0)

      there is a legal difference between detainment and arrest

      For a person to be legally "Under Arrest" a judge must be present, charges must be profered by a district attorney or Grand Jury, and the arrested person must be provided counsel if he so choses

      legally and technically, a person is not actually under arrest until these steps have been completed

      "detainment" is the physical act of being taken into custody and held in a jail or other holding facility until the detainee is either arrested or released

      under Unites States law, a person can be detained up to 72 hours or more without ever being charged with a crime ( ie Arrested). There is also a "reasonable Time" clause which can be interpreted either as shortening the 72 hour limit or extending it, based upon reasonable expectation of court room availability

      being detained aint being arrested, and being arrested aint being detained. And both can happen at the same time

    •  Amendment five gone bye bye. (none / 0)

      Just like Amendment four under Reagan.

      Frontpage story on dkos right now. No more right to due process. Americans can be detained without trial just like the 10,000 Iraqis and God knows how many others.

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