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Gay adoption, however, bothers me. It's not the rights of the parents, however, it's about the child. Let me explain...
I went to public school in Los Angeles. Drugs, gangs, violence, you name it. It was basically a jailhouse mentality. The strong preyed on the weak, people were constantly trying to instigate fights among others, and there was always peer pressure. Trash talking was a constant. Insults were always there. A common one was "... yeah, and f--- you and your two dads!" (i.e. the insult being your mother was actually a guy).
Now, if you're a gay/lesbian couple, and you adopt, and stick your kid in an LA public school, either:
Well, your kid could win the fight, but that will lead straight to juvenile hall, even if it was self defense. (hooray for zero-tolerance policies </snark>)
#2 is probably more likely to happen to boys; but girls will also face various forms of social retribution. (Note: the most vicious fight I saw in school was actually between 2 girls).
If you're a lesbian couple and you happen to both look like porn stars, you'd better believe that your adopted child's male friends want to watch (or, sneak pictures, or whatever). The good news is your kid won't get beaten up. The bad news is that I wouldn't exactly call this "respect" in the positive sense.
---
I don't have the answers here. But as someone who was beaten by about 10 people at one time (including several kicks to the head) when I was 14, I am seriously concerned that the children of gay/lesbian couples will be abused by their peers. And unfortunately, you can't change the peers.
If anyone has a rosier outlook on this, please contribute.
by Super Pretzel on Tue Jan 03, 2006 at 04:13:29 AM PDT
(2) Go back 50 years
(3) Replace "gay" with "bi-racial" in your comment.
I'm not sure what to do with the "porn star" part. I assume that was snark.
Sorry you had it rough in High School.
by LithiumCola on Tue Jan 03, 2006 at 04:20:27 AM PDT
[ Parent ]
For all practical matters, I did grow up in the West San Fernando Valley area, and at least one porn star lived in my neighborhood. obviously, this isn't a concern in the rest of the country.
Fortunately, my high-school experience lasted 2 years (I got out fast), and I'm having a great time in grad school now.
The bi-racial comment is right on. So, 50 years ago, how did bi-racial children deal with it? I'm sure they had to use their fists every now and again, but that was back when "boys could be boys", gang violence wasn't what it is today, and you could stand up for yourself when attacked without fear of zero-tolerance policies punishing you for refusing to take it.
by Super Pretzel on Tue Jan 03, 2006 at 04:44:24 AM PDT
by vickyny on Tue Jan 03, 2006 at 06:00:42 AM PDT
Support five Democratic women of integrity in 2006.
by formalist on Tue Jan 03, 2006 at 06:08:00 AM PDT
Okay, that was a joke.
The argument against gay parenting is naive. Gay parents--at least the ones I know--want their children so much that they go to great lengths to make it happen. How many kids in this world are that lucky? They educate themselves about good parenting practice and take a proactive stance toward their children's reception in this homophobic world, including measures to increase safety at school--among them living in communities that embrace rather than reject them. I concede that children of gay parents are a sitting target for abuse by some jerks, but many if not most kids are targets for one reason or another. It's not a valid reason to deprive homosexual partners of their parenting rights.
by Leeserannie on Tue Jan 03, 2006 at 07:09:45 AM PDT
I'm sure there are many other undesirable family categories that, if eliminated, would reduce the incidence of bullying and violence.
"As scientific knowledge advances, it does not mean that religious knowledge retreats." - horse69 on the bnet recon C&C board
by lonespark on Tue Jan 03, 2006 at 07:40:21 AM PDT
by vickyny on Tue Jan 03, 2006 at 02:10:04 PM PDT
The Right is always talking about the dangers of 'normalizing' homosexuality. There's a reason they're afraid of that. When something begins to be accepted as normal it becomes harder to whip up hate against it. Those peers you speak of will change when they know so many GLBT people that the only reaction they have to Johnny having two mothers is boredom.
I'm not sure how you can say you're for gay rights, but then tell us we shouldn't have children. How is that seeing us as equal citizens or, even more fundamentally, as equal human beings?
by katynka on Tue Jan 03, 2006 at 06:34:30 AM PDT
by formalist on Tue Jan 03, 2006 at 06:35:52 AM PDT
by katynka on Tue Jan 03, 2006 at 07:50:26 AM PDT
Wow...thanks for being "almost" in favor of my equal rights. I feel so...undeserving....
explain how letting gays marry will directly affect your own heterosexual relationship?
by bluestatesam on Tue Jan 03, 2006 at 07:05:45 AM PDT
by bluestatesam on Tue Jan 03, 2006 at 07:11:32 AM PDT
Kids will find ANY reason to weed out people in an instinctual attempt to kill off the weak and unfit. If it's not homosexuality, it's going to be something else. You can't shelter them from it and you can't take them away from it. The kid has to learn to stand out on his or her own. The kid's best bet is a couple of loving and supportive parents, who will raise that kid to be strong and independent.
Nuke Clinton Now.
by maxomai on Tue Jan 03, 2006 at 08:08:45 AM PDT
If you look at families with two moms or two dads they really try very hard to look out for stuff like this and to give the child the best. Generally because it's harder for them to have children they are excellent parents and work really hard to protect their kids - that's a massive generalization, I know but it's what I've seen in real life.
The state has no business in the bedrooms of the nation. - Pierre Trudeau
by lonestar canuck on Tue Jan 03, 2006 at 08:22:55 AM PDT
One postive note in this mess, the thugs videotaped their assault, which came in handy at the trial.
But by your twisted logic, it was my friend at fault, for having married a man who earned a good living, who could then send her son to private school.
What you're doing is called "blaming the victim," and it's not pretty, or logical.
by judybrowni on Tue Jan 03, 2006 at 11:29:23 AM PDT
I'm not blaming the victim or excusing violence. I'm saying that not allowing gays to adopt because the child might get beaten up is a silly argument against gays adopting.
by lonestar canuck on Tue Jan 03, 2006 at 01:02:47 PM PDT
I got through those years, thanks in part to having pretty good parents. I wouldn't wish that kind of treatment on anyone, and I'll do everything I can to keep my own kids from having to live through the same hell. But I know it's survivable. And my life has been a good one; I'm confident that I've known a lot more joy than any of my attackers. (Living well is indeed the best revenge.)
So while my heart goes out to kids who are tormented for having gay parents, I'm not sympathetic to the idea that gays should not have kids. If, Universe forbid, my wife and I were killed in an accident, we'd want our kids raised by two loving parents with values similar to ours. Gay, disabled, black, white, Jewish, Christian, atheist -- those are just details.
I'm Nowhere Hussein Man, and I apologize for this comment.
by Nowhere Man on Tue Jan 03, 2006 at 08:28:12 AM PDT
by Stewsam on Tue Jan 03, 2006 at 09:24:42 AM PDT
Your kid has to stay in the closet about your relationship
Your kid is getting beaten up for sure.
as a gay parent (Daddy, Papa & Me) and GLBT family activist, I know dozens, if not hundreds of GLBT parents, many in LA and many with kids in the LA public school system from grades 2 to 10... and to the last one..
not a single one is closeted about their relationship
and not a single one has every been physically threatened, much less beaten.
In fact, I know at least a half dozen families in GEORGIA where their kids our out and never hurt.
you need to speak from what you know, not what you think you'd expect. Perhaps you should visit the blogs of gay parents or speak to some parents and children directly to form a more realistic opinion. (there are hundreds of thousands of parents and hundreds of blogs)
Daddy, Papa & Me: Two dads, a daughter & the politics of it all.
by wclathe on Tue Jan 03, 2006 at 09:31:15 AM PDT
Well fuck it all, I'm still not leaving. I'm too goddamn mean and stubborn to be run off by a swarm of annoying insects.
by homogenius on Tue Jan 03, 2006 at 10:59:38 AM PDT
Please don't tell me you feel sorry for Ben. Ben is a well cared for dalmatian and has not been harmed by my political views.
by Bensdad on Tue Jan 03, 2006 at 10:30:49 AM PDT
I realized that when on the bus recently, listening to some early-teen boys in the back teasing each other. They were calling each other cocksuckers and gay, and saying things like, "you just want to suck his dick." The comments obviously weren't intended as complimentary, but what struck me was, well, that no one seemed in any danger of being struck. The tone was light and bantering, rather than nasty. Instead of being infuriated, the insulted one would lob one of the same back, and everyone would laugh. Something seemed familiar, and I then realized that they were teasing each other about gay sex in almost precisely the same tone older generations had teased each other about straight sex -- as a potential embarassment, not a mortal insult.
by sagesource on Tue Jan 03, 2006 at 10:43:51 AM PDT
But they were hardly alone in that - the computer lab guys, new wave punks and skater kids got flak, any weak looking skinny guy got flak, pretty much all the girls who weren't beautiful and sexily dressed got flak, the Indian kids, the immigrant kids, the black kids, Jewish kids, kids with cerebral palsy... If a school is badly managed and bullies can run wild, very few kids will be safe.
Yes it can be painful being different, almost nobody really likes not fitting in, there is always a price to pay. Having a queer family or family member is only one on a long list of things that can make you stick out, and it won't make you stick out to total strangers. And being different is not an evil, in fact, it's usually a plus once you get out of high school.
I know two sets of gay parents and they are the most conscientious loving careful parents imaginable. If abusive neglectful selfish stupid addicted straight people can raise kids, I can't think of one reason why loving generous smart and sane gay people shouldn't. I think what you get at home ultimately matters a lot more to who you become than what you get at school.
And if you're a parent with kids in public school, you have to scope out that school ahead of time, be as involved as you can be, know the teachers, etc and if it's a hellhole, find your alternatives. Gay, straight, whatever.
"Civility costs nothing and buys everything." - Mary Wortley Montagu
by sarac on Tue Jan 03, 2006 at 10:54:44 AM PDT
-- "Cheap Labor Conservative"-use the term everywhere
by pdrap on Tue Jan 03, 2006 at 11:49:21 AM PDT
If your argument is in defense of the child...You have missed the point entirely.
The Arizona law that does not allow unmarried couples to second-parent adoption hurts the child on several fronts. Health and Life Insurance, inheritance, custody are only just a few...
Certainly the biological parent can provide for these but the law as written also serves to let the second-parent off the hook for any legal responsibility that they may have and should have towards their non-biological children and this is irregardless of if their best intentions are for meeting all of the child's needs.
And then in the event of death of the biological parent the child who may have only known of his/her loving parents now becomes the unnecessary victim of the court. And worse should now the second-parent petition for adoption be contested by the biological relatives of the child all of whom may not have the best interests of the child in mind and are free now to bias the court with any hate retoric that they may have about the child being raised by a GLBT
There in lies the problem I have as clearly the law is not about the best needs of the children in these cases.
As an Arizonian I am ashamed...as a lesbian I am appalled
(-6.13, -5.79)
by sedonared on Tue Jan 03, 2006 at 11:52:51 AM PDT
Gay couples often adopt children that are not the focus of 'traditional' adoption efforts. And, in any case, every state has many children in foster care that are waiting, waiting, waiting...
Oh heck... better for them not to have ANY parents than to be made fun of in school.
by YucatanMan on Tue Jan 03, 2006 at 12:19:24 PM PDT
If it isn't having two dads, it's something else. Being fat, wearing glasses, you name it.
I can't help but think that if we stop gay adoption because of people's reaction to it, we're sort of giving in.
"In America fundamentalist Christians believe the world was created 6,000 years ago - in England people drink in bars that are older than that." - Steve Aylett
by Mephistopheles on Tue Jan 03, 2006 at 12:39:12 PM PDT
It was more dangerous to be nerdy, for sure.
Also lousy example for kids that the threat of intolerance should control your behavior.
fact does not require fiction for balance
by mollyd on Tue Jan 03, 2006 at 01:10:20 PM PDT
I got beat up. My brother got a trip to the emergency room, courtesy of the fists of loving, tolerant Christians.
How did we handle it? Well, my mother promised to back us with up to and including legal action, and my brother and I got ourselves trained in ass-whuppin' from my mom's MP (Marine) boyfriend. A few kicked asses later, and lo and behold, we had no further trouble.
Some parents screamed threats of legal action, and the district threatened us with expulsion, but we had a nice, lengthy paper trail and a parent that said the magic words "you can talk to my lawyer."
Bottom line: you can raise your kids to be victims, or to be survivors. You'd better train them to be survivors. I'm proud of my beliefs, heritage and of my parents and would do it all over again.
They're calling our bluff and all we're holding is a Pelosi and a Hoyer.
by arbiter on Tue Jan 03, 2006 at 02:16:50 PM PDT
wide narrow
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