Daily Kos

View Story | 138 comments

  •  My comment on gay adoption (semi-off topic) (none / 0)

    Before stating this (I'm expecting a flame war), let me state that I'm almost universally in favor of gay rights.

    Gay adoption, however, bothers me. It's not the rights of the parents, however, it's about the child. Let me explain...

    I went to public school in Los Angeles. Drugs, gangs, violence, you name it. It was basically a jailhouse mentality. The strong preyed on the weak, people were constantly trying to instigate fights among others, and there was always peer pressure. Trash talking was a constant. Insults were always there. A common one was "... yeah, and f--- you and your two dads!" (i.e. the insult being your mother was actually a guy).

    Now, if you're a gay/lesbian couple, and you adopt, and stick your kid in an LA public school, either:

    1. Your kid has to stay in the closet about your relationship

    2. Your kid is getting beaten up for sure.  

    There are a few caveats:

    Well, your kid could win the fight, but that will lead straight to juvenile hall, even if it was self defense. (hooray for zero-tolerance policies </snark>)

    #2 is probably more likely to happen to boys; but girls will also face various forms of social retribution. (Note: the most vicious fight I saw in school was actually between 2 girls).

    If you're a lesbian couple and you happen to both look like porn stars, you'd better believe that your adopted child's male friends want to watch (or, sneak pictures, or whatever). The good news is your kid won't get beaten up. The bad news is that I wouldn't exactly call this "respect" in the positive sense.

    ---

    I don't have the answers here. But as someone who was beaten by about 10 people at one time (including several kicks to the head) when I was 14, I am seriously concerned that the children of gay/lesbian couples will be abused by their peers. And unfortunately, you can't change the peers.

    If anyone has a rosier outlook on this, please contribute.

    •  Three steps (4.00 / 15)

      (1) Purchase time machine

      (2) Go back 50 years

      (3) Replace "gay" with "bi-racial" in your comment.

      I'm not sure what to do with the "porn star" part.  I assume that was snark.

      Sorry you had it rough in High School.

      •  Response (none / 0)

        The porn star part was designed to illustrate how one form of bigotry (objectification) can be used to supplant another form of bigotry (homophobia). I'm white an married to a black woman. I hear "I generally can't stand black people but I really like your wife" more often than I'd like to admit.

        For all practical matters, I did grow up in the West San Fernando Valley area, and at least one porn star lived in my neighborhood. obviously, this isn't a concern in the rest of the country.

        Fortunately, my high-school experience lasted 2 years (I got out fast), and I'm having a great time in grad school now.

        The bi-racial comment is right on. So, 50 years ago, how did bi-racial children deal with it? I'm sure they had to use their fists every now and again, but that was back when "boys could be boys", gang violence wasn't what it is today, and you could stand up for yourself when attacked without fear of zero-tolerance policies punishing you for refusing to take it.

        •  Pretzel logic... (4.00 / 12)

          by your argument, no one who is different in any way should be able to adopt because their kids might get beaten up. So should we all do what the bullies want us to do? It's the same logic some have used to keep gays out of the military--because they might get beaten up. By your logic Rosa Parks should have stayed in the back of the bus because her actions angered and provoked people. Look, nothing changes until things are shaken up. Once gays can adopt and there are enough gay parents, it becomes a cultural norm. Bill Gates probably got beaten up for being a nerd--did he go hide his head?
          •  I agree (4.00 / 5)

            I find his argument regressive.
          •  Even I got beaten up (4.00 / 9)

            for being a nerd. And my parents aren't gay. My son got beaten up for being a nerd. His parents aren't gay. Therefore: If you are a gay couple, make sure you don't adopt a nerd.

            Okay, that was a joke.

            The argument against gay parenting is naive. Gay parents--at least the ones I know--want their children so much that they go to great lengths to make it happen. How many kids in this world are that lucky? They educate themselves about good parenting practice and take a proactive stance toward their children's reception in this homophobic world, including measures to increase safety at school--among them living in communities that embrace rather than reject them. I concede that children of gay parents are a sitting target for abuse by some jerks, but many if not most kids are targets for one reason or another. It's not a valid reason to deprive homosexual partners of their parenting rights.

        •  Well (4.00 / 4)

          You know who else shouldn't be allowed to adopt?
          Bi-racial couples, as everyone's said.
          People of minority religions.
          People with funny accents.
          People who tolerate nerds.
          People whose social class does not match that of every other person in their town.
          People who allow their children to deviate from rigid sex roles.

          I'm sure there are many other undesirable family categories that, if eliminated, would reduce the incidence of bullying and violence.

          "As scientific knowledge advances, it does not mean that religious knowledge retreats." - horse69 on the bnet recon C&C board

          by lonespark on Tue Jan 03, 2006 at 07:40:21 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  same goes for (none / 0)

            biological kids too--people who are "different" just would not be allowed to reproduce, for fear of bullies. Social Darwinism at work here--only the bullies would reproduce so it would be a society of aggressors. (Wait, it is starting to get that way...)
    •  Change (4.00 / 3)

      And unfortunately, you can't change the peers.
      No you can't, if you make gays and lesbians invisible.

      The Right is always talking about the dangers of 'normalizing' homosexuality.  There's a reason they're afraid of that.  When something begins to be accepted as normal it becomes harder to whip up hate against it.  Those peers you speak of will change when they know so many GLBT people that the only reaction they have to Johnny having two mothers is boredom.

      I'm not sure how you can say you're for gay rights, but then tell us we shouldn't have children.  How is that seeing us as equal citizens or, even more fundamentally, as equal human beings?  

    •  you say you are (4.00 / 7)

      "almost" universally in favor of gay rights.

      Wow...thanks for being "almost" in favor of my equal rights.  I feel so...undeserving....

      explain how letting gays marry will directly affect your own heterosexual relationship?

      by bluestatesam on Tue Jan 03, 2006 at 07:05:45 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  Cut to the chase (4.00 / 4)

      Are you saying adoption should be illegal for gay couples?  

      explain how letting gays marry will directly affect your own heterosexual relationship?

      by bluestatesam on Tue Jan 03, 2006 at 07:11:32 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  Or... (4.00 / 2)

      ...you could be a kid in the LA public school system and get into a fight anyway.

      Kids will find ANY reason to weed out people in an instinctual attempt to kill off the weak and unfit. If it's not homosexuality, it's going to be something else. You can't shelter them from it and you can't take them away from it. The kid has to learn to stand out on his or her own. The kid's best bet is a couple of loving and supportive parents, who will raise that kid to be strong and independent.

    •  There are no guarantees (none / 0)

      for anything.  I'm sorry that you were beaten up but I don't think that the risk of being beaten up for who your parents are outweighs being in a loving stable home.   My daughter could be beaten at her school for being short or being Canadian, or being smart or any number of reasons that have nothing to do with what her father and I do.  

      If you look at families with two moms or two dads they really try very hard to look out for stuff like this and to give the child the best.  Generally because it's harder for them to have children they are excellent parents and work really hard to protect their kids - that's a massive generalization, I know but it's what I've seen in real life.  

      The state has no business in the bedrooms of the nation. - Pierre Trudeau

      by lonestar canuck on Tue Jan 03, 2006 at 08:22:55 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  FRIEND TOLD ME (4.00 / 2)

        Her son had been severly beaten by neighborhood public school kids because he went to private school, and his father was "rich."

        One postive note in this mess, the thugs videotaped their assault, which came in handy at the trial.

        But by your twisted logic, it was my friend at fault, for having married a man who earned a good living, who could then send her son to private school.

        What you're doing is called "blaming the victim," and it's not pretty, or logical.

        •  Uh no..... (none / 0)

          I'm not saying it's okay to beat anyone.  I'm saying that there shouldn't be a law against gays adopting because the kids might get beaten up.  

          I'm not blaming the victim or excusing violence.   I'm saying that not allowing gays to adopt because the child might get beaten up is a silly argument against gays adopting.  

          The state has no business in the bedrooms of the nation. - Pierre Trudeau

          by lonestar canuck on Tue Jan 03, 2006 at 01:02:47 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

    •  I was beaten up, too (4.00 / 4)

      For a few years, I could expect it at least daily, like clockwork. It wasn't for being gay, or having gay parents. Ironically, though, "gay" was one of the worst insults they could use, and I heard it often.

      I got through those years, thanks in part to having pretty good parents. I wouldn't wish that kind of treatment on anyone, and I'll do everything I can to keep my own kids from having to live through the same hell. But I know it's survivable. And my life has been a good one; I'm confident that I've known a lot more joy than any of my attackers. (Living well is indeed the best revenge.)

      So while my heart goes out to kids who are tormented for having gay parents, I'm not sympathetic to the idea that gays should not have kids. If, Universe forbid, my wife and I were killed in an accident, we'd want our kids raised by two loving parents with values similar to ours. Gay, disabled, black, white, Jewish, Christian, atheist -- those are just details.

      I'm Nowhere Hussein Man, and I apologize for this comment.

      by Nowhere Man on Tue Jan 03, 2006 at 08:28:12 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  asdf (4.00 / 3)

      I was abbandoned at birth by my parents, I spent my whole childhood from 6 months to 18 years old in the care of my local authority here in the UK. I can tell you that I would have prefered any parent to no parent at all.
    •  you are patently wrong (4.00 / 7)

      Now, if you're a gay/lesbian couple, and you adopt, and stick your kid in an LA public school, either:

      Your kid has to stay in the closet about your relationship

      Your kid is getting beaten up for sure.  

      as a gay parent  (Daddy, Papa & Me) and GLBT family activist, I know dozens, if not hundreds of GLBT parents, many in LA and many with kids in the LA public school system from grades 2 to 10... and to the last one..

      not a single one is closeted about their relationship

      and not a single one has every been physically threatened, much less beaten.

      In fact, I know at least a half dozen families in GEORGIA where their kids our out and never hurt.

      you need to speak from what you know, not what you think you'd expect. Perhaps you should visit the blogs of gay parents or speak to some parents and children directly to form a more realistic opinion.
      (there are hundreds of thousands of parents and hundreds of blogs)

      Daddy, Papa & Me: Two dads, a daughter & the politics of it all.

      by wclathe on Tue Jan 03, 2006 at 09:31:15 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  Perfect response. (none / 1)

        All these "theoretical" arguments are from people opposed to full equality. Most of the justifications for denying anyone equal rights is based on strawman arguments like this. Remember the debate about the ERA: it could require unisex bathrooms.

        Well fuck it all, I'm still not leaving. I'm too goddamn mean and stubborn to be run off by a swarm of annoying insects.

        by homogenius on Tue Jan 03, 2006 at 10:59:38 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

    •  How silly.... (4.00 / 3)

      ...you don't change the relationship to suit the horrid conditions of the schools, you either change the school (protect the students in it), or go to a place where such violence would be unthinkable (New Zealand, France, Canada).

      Please don't tell me you feel sorry for Ben. Ben is a well cared for dalmatian and has not been harmed by my political views.

      by Bensdad on Tue Jan 03, 2006 at 10:30:49 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  At least where I live.... (4.00 / 2)

      ....Vancouver, that is, "gay" isn't the insult that it used to be. You hear it a lot, of course, but it doesn't have the edge that, say, "faggot" used to have.

      I realized that when on the bus recently, listening to some early-teen boys in the back teasing each other. They were calling each other cocksuckers and gay, and saying things like, "you just want to suck his dick." The comments obviously weren't intended as complimentary, but what struck me was, well, that no one seemed in any danger of being struck. The tone was light and bantering, rather than nasty. Instead of being infuriated, the insulted one would lob one of the same back, and everyone would laugh. Something seemed familiar, and I then realized that they were teasing each other about gay sex in almost precisely the same tone older generations had teased each other about straight sex -- as a potential embarassment, not a mortal insult.

    •  Well, (none / 1)

      I don't know about the LA schools, all I know about is my small college town and Minneapolis, but from the teenagers I know in both those places, high school kids now seem to be significantly less homophobic than when I was in the Minneapolis public schools in the 70s and early 80s.  I knew some gay kids in my high school, and a couple of gay parents, actually.  It wasn't a huge deal and the kids didn't get beat up for it, though they took serious flak at various times.  

      But they were hardly alone in that - the computer lab guys, new wave punks and skater kids got flak, any weak looking skinny guy got flak, pretty much all the girls who weren't beautiful and sexily dressed got flak, the Indian kids, the immigrant kids, the black kids, Jewish kids, kids with cerebral palsy...  If a school is badly managed and bullies can run wild, very few kids will be safe.  

      Yes it can be painful being different, almost nobody really likes not fitting in, there is always a price to pay.  Having a queer family or family member is only one on a long list of things that can make you stick out, and it won't make you stick out to total strangers.  And being different is not an evil, in fact, it's usually a plus once you get out of high school.

      I know two sets of gay parents and they are the most conscientious loving careful parents imaginable.  If abusive neglectful selfish stupid addicted straight people can raise kids, I can't think of one reason why loving generous smart and  sane gay people shouldn't.  I think what you get at home ultimately matters a lot more to who you become than what you get at school.

      And if you're a parent with kids in public school, you have to scope out that school ahead of time, be as involved as you can be, know the teachers, etc and if it's a hellhole, find your alternatives.  Gay, straight, whatever.  

      "Civility costs nothing and buys everything." - Mary Wortley Montagu

      by sarac on Tue Jan 03, 2006 at 10:54:44 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  Get yourself to a theater NOW (none / 0)

      Go see "Family Stone". Entertaining movie, with a scene that applies specifically to your argument.
    •  Missing the point (4.00 / 2)

      Gay adoption, however, bothers me. It's not the rights of the parents, however, it's about the child. Let me explain...

      If your argument is in defense of the child...You have missed the point entirely.

      The Arizona law that does not allow unmarried couples to second-parent adoption hurts the child on several fronts.
      Health and Life Insurance, inheritance, custody are only just a few...

      Certainly the biological parent can provide for these but the law as written also serves to let the second-parent off the hook for any legal responsibility that they may have and should have towards their non-biological children and this is irregardless of if their best intentions are for meeting all of the child's needs.

      And then in the event of death of the biological parent the child who may have only known of his/her loving parents now becomes the unnecessary victim of the court.  And worse should now the second-parent petition for adoption be contested by the biological relatives of the child all of whom may not have the best interests of the child in mind and are free now to bias the court with any hate retoric that they may have about the child being raised by a GLBT

      There in lies the problem I have as clearly the law is not about the best needs of the children in these cases.

      As an Arizonian I am ashamed...as a lesbian I am appalled

    •  So, the choice is... (none / 0)

      those children should be institutionalized or placed within foster care for 10 - 18 years???

      Gay couples often adopt children that are not the focus of 'traditional' adoption efforts.  And, in any case, every state has many children in foster care that are waiting, waiting, waiting...  

      Oh heck... better for them not to have ANY parents than to be made fun of in school.

    •  It doesn't really work like that (none / 0)

      In my experience, bullies bully the person, not the issue.

      If it isn't having two dads, it's something else. Being fat, wearing glasses, you name it.

      I can't help but think that if we stop gay adoption because of people's reaction to it, we're sort of giving in.

      "In America fundamentalist Christians believe the world was created 6,000 years ago - in England people drink in bars that are older than that." - Steve Aylett

      by Mephistopheles on Tue Jan 03, 2006 at 12:39:12 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  depends a lot on the adult example (none / 0)

      The gay-straight alliance was a VERY popular club where my kids went to school.

      It was more dangerous to be nerdy, for sure.

      Also lousy example for kids that the threat of intolerance should control your behavior.

      fact does not require fiction for balance

      by mollyd on Tue Jan 03, 2006 at 01:10:20 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  no options save combat (none / 0)

      Getting beaten up is an unfortunate part of growing up different, whether it's due to your parents being gay, biracial, being a nerd, or (in my family's case) being outspoken atheists.  

      I got beat up.  My brother got a trip to the emergency room, courtesy of the fists of loving, tolerant Christians.

      How did we handle it?  Well, my mother promised to back us with up to and including legal action, and my brother and I got ourselves trained in ass-whuppin' from my mom's MP (Marine) boyfriend.  A few kicked asses later, and lo and behold, we had no further trouble.

      Some parents screamed threats of legal action, and the district threatened us with expulsion, but we had a nice, lengthy paper trail and a parent that said the magic words "you can talk to my lawyer."

      Bottom line:  you can raise your kids to be victims, or to be survivors.  You'd better train them to be survivors.  I'm proud of my beliefs, heritage and of my parents and would do it all over again.  

      They're calling our bluff and all we're holding is a Pelosi and a Hoyer.

      by arbiter on Tue Jan 03, 2006 at 02:16:50 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

View Story | 138 comments