Daily Kos

View Story | 106 comments

  •  Tet Was NOT A Military Disaster For The VC (1+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    Meteor Blades

    I can't remember ever disagreeing with Meteor Blades before, but I've already gone on record on this:

    Remember Tet--It Was A US Defeat

    The meme they want to get out is that the US won Tet, but lost the war at home.  This is absurd, as anyone who's read Clausewitz would know.  War is a political act, and the Tet had a political purpose, which it acheived.  Ergo, it was a victory.

    The Tet offensive was intended to show the US that the war was unwinnable for us.  If they lucked out--which they didn't--there was a chance to end the war quickly.  If not, they would demonstrate that our fantasy of grinding them down was just that--a fantasy.

    These are the same people who fought the Chinese for 1900 [years].  They just needed to do something to bring that point home to us. Tet did that.  That was its purpose, and that made it a victory.

    The revisionists are trying to use a different yardstick to measure it--as if it were a battle in WWII.  By that yardstick, they would be absolutely right.  But it's the wrong yardstick, because the political objectives were entirely different.

    So, don't let know-nothings fool you.

    Tet effectively ended the war.  It just took awhile to take effect.  In the electoral arena, it convinced 42% of New Hampshire voters to vote for Eugene McCarthy as a peace candidate, which in turn convinced RFK to run for President, and LBJ not to run for re-election, but to try to bring about peace, as his final legacy.

    In Vietnam, it helped fuel the explosive growth of the GI peace movement.  Within two years of Tet, it became commonplace for entire combat units to refuse orders to go out into the field.  There were hundreds of fragging incidents against officers who tried to make them fight.  By the time of the Christmas bombings a couple of years after that, even Air Force captains were refusing orders that they regarded as war crimes under international law.

    This is exactly what Tet was designed to do.  Which is why it was not a defeat.

    The American people knew nothing about Vietnam's history and politics.  They had no idea that Vietnam had fought for its independence for 1900 years.  The Viet Minh (the real name of the "Viet Cong") knew their own history.  They knew that they would never stop fighting. They knew that the Americans eventually would.  If not in one generation, then in two. Or three. Or four.  They knew that victory was inevitable.  The only problem was convincing America of this.  Tet did that.  Mission accomplished, as they say.

    •  Tet victory? (1+ / 0-)

      Recommended by:
      Meteor Blades

      My understanding-- please correct me if I have this wrong-- is that the Tet offensive was clearly a defeat for the US in that it shook American confidence in their mission in Vietnam. But it was also a defeat for the Viet Minh, because it required that they come out in the open, to be identified and eliminated by the Americans and ARVN. The Viet Minh organization was pretty much broken after Tet. The real victors were the North Vietnamese, who could now more directly fill the political/military vacuum in the South.  

      •  Having It Both Ways (0+ / 0-)

        Up until Tet, the official US line was that North Vietnam was a separate entity, and was trying to take over the South.  All the insurgent forces in the South were really agents of the North.

        After Tet, the new line was that southern insurents were an entirely separate entity, which was defeated in Tet.

        Funny how that works.

        •  Good point. The truth was far more complex ... (0+ / 0-)

          ...Many Southerners went North after the '54 split, and particularly after the '56 elections didn't happen. They came back in fairly large numbers as cadre from '59 onwards. These were called Northerners by the U.S. propaganda machine, and most of the Southern resistance was "homegrown" and made up of people who had never been in the North.

          I am an anti-imperialist. I am opposed to having the eagle put its talons on any other land. -- Mark Twain

          by Meteor Blades on Sat Oct 21, 2006 at 08:13:19 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

    •  I agree with a portion of what you've said ... (0+ / 0-)

      ...here, Paul, but not all. Good point about Viet Minh.

      The Tet goal of the NLF was to bring down the Saigon government, or, if not that, gain enough clout so that it could lead a coalition that would eventually give it the chief role in a postwar government.

      The goal of General Giap was two-fold, break the Saigon government and simultaneously break the will of the American homefront to continue fighting the war. The latter was successful, although the majority of casualties on both sides in the war would come in the next 5 years. But, as General Giap himself admits in his autobiography, Tet was a short-term military disaster. The NLF - mostly Southerners with many communist cadre from the North - was crippled, and never recovered, and its dream of being the leader of a new government was dashed. This crippling led to more North Vietnamese regulars entering the war. The massive losses, combined with the Phoenix assassination program, wiped out the political infrastructure of the NLF, allowing even more dominance by the North in the ongoing war. When the war over, there were few influential Southerners left to provide some leavening to Hanoi's austere rulers.

      Of course, Tet also shattered the carefully honed illusion that America could win in Vietnam, which was certainly a piece of Giap's objective, but not the whole shebang. And all that resistance you mention ultimately helped force an end to the draft and troop withdrawals. Still, another 28,000 Americans and 2+ million Southeast Asians died in the years until the U.S. withdrawal in '73.

      So, yes, Tet was a political success for General Giap, but for the NLF, it was both a military and a political defeat.

      I am an anti-imperialist. I am opposed to having the eagle put its talons on any other land. -- Mark Twain

      by Meteor Blades on Sat Oct 21, 2006 at 08:08:04 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  I Guess I'm Just A Big Picture Guy (1+ / 0-)

        Recommended by:
        Meteor Blades

        Although I just loooove wallowing in details (my most recent diary looked at House elections since 1890!) my bottom line is usually big picture.  The moment I heard about a Buddhist monk (Thich Quang Duc) immolating himself, I knew that (1) we were on the wrong side and (2) we would lose.  I was 12 years old at the time.

        Some time after that I learned how long Vietnam had been fighting for its independence from China (it was independent for a good part of this time, but always had to be on guard against China), at which point the total absurdity became evident to me--since this clearly shot the domino theory all to hell.

        We weren't privy to the inner thoughts of the Ho, Giap and NLF at the time, so we really had to think about what things could possibly mean, and what they clearly could not mean.  And many of us came to think in "world historical" terms.  Meaning that invididuals, however remarkable and important, did not make movements: movements made individuals, not just over the course of a generation, but over the course of centuries.

        From this perspective, Giap's memoirs are still significant, but not fully determinative, for the simple reason that no individual's perspective can fully encompass the larger movement they are part of.  This is one reason why historical figures are often remembered differently than they see themselves.

        Which is why I still give far more weight to the ultimate objective--getting the US to withdraw--than to the short-term objective--overthrowing the SVN government, and far more weight to seeing the Northern and Southern resistence as part of a unified whole, stretching back in time almost 2000 years.

        Finally, however, the main reason I object to calling Tet a defeat for the Communists is that this is part of a larger narrative, which says, "We won the war in Vietnam, but lost it at home."  We Americans are rarely, if ever, concerned with the internal politics of people we are fighting overseas.  When we suddenly develop such an interest, there is invariably an ulterior motive, and this narrative clearly shows what it is in this case: to blame-shift the loss of the Vietnam War.

        We would do well to remember that George Washington "lost" almost every battle he fought in the Revolutionary War.  It's amazing that most people don't know this.  The difference between Vietnam and the Revolutionary War is that Vietnam had been fighting that sort of insurgent warfare for 1900 years.  They knew better than to equate tactical and strategic victories--which, for me, is arguably a better way to distinguish Tet's shortcomings for Giap vs it's success than to speak of "military defeat" vs. "political victory."

        One reason that Tom Paine was such an important figure in the Revolution is that the American colonists did not have such a common understanding, but Paine, above all, supplied it to them, so that they came to see the strategic shape of their struggle behind the tactical surface, which seemed like nothing but a set of defeats--at least on Washington's part, which was the central "front" of the war.

View Story | 106 comments