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  •  There are documented grounds for impeachment... (0+ / 0-)

    here.

    The provided link includes charges, with evidence for each.

    Charges include:

    Illegal war.

    Illegal spying.
    Illegal breaking of Geneva Conventions.
    Illegal detention.
    Illegal release of classified information.

    "the people have the power to redeem the work of fools" --Patti Smith

    by Immigrant Punk on Mon Nov 20, 2006 at 06:35:33 AM PDT

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    •  I don't have time to review these as carefully (2+ / 0-)

      Recommended by:
      buhdydharma, Immigrant Punk

      as I would do, as an attorney, if this were a real case.  But I will bet you that I could look through your list and in one hour come up with plausible defenses to each charge that would give Senators cover for not resorting to the extreme remedy of impeachment and removal from office.  They wouldn't necessarily be ones that would convince you (or me), but they would be enough to turn what might otherwise be a successful enterprise into a bumbling effort such as the Clinton impeachment.

      That's just me, just one hour.  Imagine what the finest conservative attorneys in the country could come up with over many months.  (As if they haven't already started.)

      My guess is that the removal of Bush and Cheney would require a final coming to terms with, and defeating, the notion of a unitary executive, because that notion would likely be posed as an adequate defense to every charge you pose above.  I do not want to go into that legal battle anything less than fully prepared.  If you do, you're not being serious about this.

      If somebody writes a book and doesn't care for [its] survival, he's an imbecile.

      ~ Umberto Eco

      by Major Danby on Mon Nov 20, 2006 at 09:30:47 AM PDT

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      •  asdf (0+ / 0-)

        "I will bet you that I could look through your list..."

        Hardly a factual refutation of the documented facts.

        With all due respect.

        "the people have the power to redeem the work of fools" --Patti Smith

        by Immigrant Punk on Mon Nov 20, 2006 at 09:46:23 AM PDT

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        •  Right, it's not a refutation. (1+ / 0-)

          Recommended by:
          Immigrant Punk

          That would take a lot of work to do correctly, and I'm guessing that you are not prepared to pay for my time.  With all due respect, this is my profession.  I don't know "impeachforpeace.org", but your promotion of them doesn't induce me to giddily put down everything else and vet their assertions.  Sorry if you feel this doesn't meet your expectations.

          If somebody writes a book and doesn't care for [its] survival, he's an imbecile.

          ~ Umberto Eco

          by Major Danby on Mon Nov 20, 2006 at 03:28:16 PM PDT

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          •  No need to be snide... (0+ / 0-)

            I offer it sincerely. I know there's some animus on this thread, and I have tried to play a role in ameliorating it, in part by offering some of the oft-requested evidence.

            Frankly, if skeptics demand evidence, and then sneer at it when it's presented, because they are of superior professional rank and because, well, impeachment is hard work....

            Well, how are the rest of us supposed to respect that, in turn?

            "the people have the power to redeem the work of fools" --Patti Smith

            by Immigrant Punk on Mon Nov 20, 2006 at 07:18:46 PM PDT

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      •  One of the very best reasons to do it! (3+ / 0-)

        My guess is that the removal of Bush and Cheney would require a final coming to terms with, and defeating, the notion of a unitary executive, because that notion would likely be posed as an adequate defense to every charge you pose above.

        Which President is going to give away/back Unitary power in the future? If we don't challenge it now.....how do we defeat it?

        •  excellent insight (4+ / 0-)

          that points to some strategic common ground: challenging the concept of the Unitary Executive.

          That is a focus there is broad support for. It will be a focus of the 2008 election and something that will be an active issue in 2007 that cuts to the core of any investigation/oversight/interaction with the Bush Administration.

          I think if the "campaign for impeachment" were to join forces with the "campaign for oversight" at the juncture that forward looking debate about the Unitary Executive, we'd all be getting somewhere.

          Ie. move the debate from punishing Bush, moral purity and partisan victory TO a debate about Bush's current powers and the future power of any President to do what this Administration has done.

          The unitary executive debate has the advantage of bringing together investigation, current political challenges and Constitutional principles in a forward looking way. Imo that's what people want.

          •  Now we're getting somewhere! (2+ / 0-)

            Recommended by:
            buhdydharma, Immigrant Punk

            I've been saying since the election ended, "stop celebrating, the fight is not over".

            We're still in a "fight to the death" (as Bush describes it) over Bush's unitary executive powers.

            I've also downplayed the vindictive, punishment aspect of this. It's a real-time power-struggle for our freedom as Americans.

            Senator Feingold has pointed out that this is a very dangerous "lame duck" session.

            We're facing down a dictator, not a president.

          •  people want him stopped (2+ / 0-)

            Recommended by:
            Immigrant Punk, PaulGaskin

            they just don't know how!

          •  Kagros thought is that it will come (2+ / 0-)

            Recommended by:
            Immigrant Punk, PaulGaskin

            to a head when they won't repond to the subpoenas....as Cheney has indicated...thats when the fesces strikes the whirling blades and the groundswell will take off.

            •  Man, I'm looking forward to that day. (1+ / 0-)

              Recommended by:
              Immigrant Punk

              It's got to happen.

              The thought of Bush standing there at the innauguration while the next president is sworn in repellent.

              The thought of Bush in office for two more years is intolerable.

              Bush must be impeached.

            •  As I've said here before (3+ / 0-)

              that's my expectation too.  I think that if and when impeachment comes, the charge may well be a single count of obstruction of justice against both Bush and Cheney.  Setting the stage for the public to understand why that is important will take a lot of time and effort.  And I hope it's obvious why you want to give them a chance to cooperate before trumpeting that they'll be impeached no matter what they do.

              If somebody writes a book and doesn't care for [its] survival, he's an imbecile.

              ~ Umberto Eco

              by Major Danby on Mon Nov 20, 2006 at 03:31:29 PM PDT

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          •  That's a great point (2+ / 0-)

            Recommended by:
            PaulGaskin

            My only addition, as a lawyer, is that people should understand why this is important.  It is important because the theory of the unitary executive may be considered -- by Representatives, Senators, scholars, etc. -- to be an adequate defense to all of the crimes that are being thrown about.  If the President's (and Vice-President's) actions are legally excused, then you have no high crime, no misdemeanor, no basis to impeach.  The precedent that is set by losing such a battle would be horrific.  We need to be able to defeat that defense.  k/o's insight that this is a theme that can bring us together is very helpful.

            If somebody writes a book and doesn't care for [its] survival, he's an imbecile.

            ~ Umberto Eco

            by Major Danby on Mon Nov 20, 2006 at 03:35:17 PM PDT

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          •  Yeah, the "unitary executive"... (0+ / 0-)

            ...is as good a place as any to focus our various forces.

            I think the issue that will burst the "unitary executive" bubble is the torture issue, because it's a  radical break with clearly established law, and because of the precedent it thus attempts to establish. The domestic spying stuff is just as illegal, but there's more precedent for that... which makes it harder to confront now. Thus, the future problem with letting the new stuff slide now.

            That's why we have to do this, and yeah, we better do it right. That said, I don't think it'll be so difficult, once the investigations are rolling. The stuff at Impeach for Peace is a starting point for investigations, though their idea of citizen-driven impreachment, based on legal precedent, is interesting.

            Anyway, torture is flagrantly "un-American," it violates the American sensibility of "fair play," and it can be publicly pursued as such. Other stuff, like "illegal war," is trickier, because of the collusion of Congress, even if under false pretenses.

            "the people have the power to redeem the work of fools" --Patti Smith

            by Immigrant Punk on Tue Nov 21, 2006 at 10:42:14 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

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