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we just won congress. rumsfeld was fired. the person replacing him just conceded that we're losing iraq and validated everything the dems have been saying for years. the ISG comes out and says all of bush's efforts have failed, for the same reasons that dems have been saying for years. Bush's entire management style and rationale has been gutted. we are on the cusp of a new era.
and this dipshit wants to round up half our team and shoot them in the head?
idiot. complete and utter idiot. and I'll throw you in that camp for not seeing it without an explanation.
All extremists are irrational and should be exposed
by SeanF on Wed Dec 06, 2006 at 11:41:56 PM PDT
[ Parent ]
we hold members of our team accountable for politically enabling torture?
Or do you not have a problem with that?
"the people have the power to redeem the work of fools" --Patti Smith
by Immigrant Punk on Wed Dec 06, 2006 at 11:44:38 PM PDT
let's round up all of them that voted for iraq and shoot them in the head as well. let's demand goddamned fucking perfection from everyone and if they don't comply, shoot them all in the fucking head.
Let's do this exactly as we're in a position to make some positive change. real fucking productive. you got me on that one, punk.
by SeanF on Wed Dec 06, 2006 at 11:46:46 PM PDT
Yeah, torture bugs me a lot. It motivated me to get involved in the work for a Dem majority!
But if Dems won't stand up to torture, then just how new an era will it be, this one you promise us?
I ask in all sincerity. There is no need to go off on me. Nor will I be browbeat into silence on the issue.
by Immigrant Punk on Wed Dec 06, 2006 at 11:49:43 PM PDT
i mean, in theory i am. but not emotionally. i look at working with the democratic party, pardon the crass image, like trying to make love to someone with a broken back. It's just a great big frustrating mess.
People are weak. politics ruins otherwise good people. I don't know what to do with that. no idea. but when we are finally emerging into a position of power to reverse some of the harms, it seems we should be trying to encourage good behavior, not highlighting how much we suck. and yes, i know we suck a lot. but still....
by SeanF on Wed Dec 06, 2006 at 11:53:19 PM PDT
It is about our obligatory duties, as a partner in the U.S. Government, to the weak and vulnerable, to all those illegally imprisoned and at the mercy of forces ostensibly under our civilian control-- it is about our duties and obligations to others. It is about our responsibility for the torture conducted in our names, with our tax dollars, with our at least partial knowledge.... and, as the diarist points out above-- surely uncomfortably-- with our at least partial consent.
Only we can stop it. Our acceptance of it, passive or otherwise, is our participation in it.
This is an entirely appropriate topic to bring up at this site, and just after an election is the very least damaging time in which to do so.
I am not willing to trade our moral core for short term political viability "at any cost." We've had too much of that already, seems to me.... and American had ended up very very far to the right for it.
by Immigrant Punk on Thu Dec 07, 2006 at 12:08:45 AM PDT
what i question is the effectiveness. I've already given up on democratic politics as being an exercise in anything approaching idealism. It's an ugly mud wrestling contest and you try to throw the beast in a way that kind of matches your personal values. When you only get 80%, you just keep on going.
I think we might right ourselves, eventually, but making lists like this seems very foolish right now.
by SeanF on Thu Dec 07, 2006 at 12:16:26 AM PDT
If not us, who?
by Immigrant Punk on Thu Dec 07, 2006 at 12:19:17 AM PDT
until the current season changes. think in those terms, and use all of that time to its best effect. Let's peak at month 22, not now.
by SeanF on Thu Dec 07, 2006 at 12:25:30 AM PDT
What about the (apparently) thousands of others in his predicament, or worse-- because they're not citizens and so therefore don't have any standing in the courts?
Mr. Padilla is one of the few we really know anything about at all. Aside from the corpses that occasionally show up on Iraqi roadsides, their kneecaps Black&Deckered...
Justice delayed is justice most tragically denied.
by Immigrant Punk on Thu Dec 07, 2006 at 01:53:50 AM PDT
And what about the estimated 3000 others that have apparently disappeared off the face of the Earth? This is nothing more than a bunch of mental sadists enabling a bigger bunch of physical sadists.
The Prince of Peace has been usurped by the God of War.
by Spoc42 on Thu Dec 07, 2006 at 07:53:54 AM PDT
Well said.
My thoughts here.
There is nothing more deceptive than an obvious fact. S. Holmes
by Carnacki on Thu Dec 07, 2006 at 04:01:20 PM PDT
by Carnacki on Wed Dec 06, 2006 at 11:54:07 PM PDT
my explanatory comment? that's when I stopped being drunk!
by SeanF on Wed Dec 06, 2006 at 11:59:06 PM PDT
Trollrated for the "dipshit" and the mischaraterization of what the diarist wrote as wanting to shoot them in the head.
The insults in the comments seemed trollworthy. That is not meant to imply you are a troll which I know well you're not. I've agreed often with you in the past and I'm sure I will again in other diaries.
by Carnacki on Thu Dec 07, 2006 at 12:05:19 AM PDT
ratings abuse. but that's your call. for the record, this kind of diary, at this time especially, is really really grating to me! It's like dumping mud all over a sunday dinner.
every now and then, the message discipline of the other side is attractive! =)
by SeanF on Thu Dec 07, 2006 at 12:11:00 AM PDT
Yes, but that message discipline comes at a steep price. The Republicans marched lock step and almost all voted for the torture bill in order to maintain message discipline.
Here's from the troll rating article in dKosopedia:
Personal attacks on other site users, including following them from thread to thread.
Now where I come from calling some one an "idiot" and "dipshit" are personal attacks although your actual mileage may vary.
by Carnacki on Thu Dec 07, 2006 at 12:19:49 AM PDT
Yes, but that message discipline comes at a steep price.
agreed, a bit too steep to be sure. but that doesn't mean we have to commit a similar error that's more comfortable to our side.
by SeanF on Thu Dec 07, 2006 at 12:26:37 AM PDT
by dft on Thu Dec 07, 2006 at 04:57:02 AM PDT
No, these are the people we need to begin looking at replacing in the primaries in the longterm.
Instead of your juvenile insults, why not trying to raise real counterpoints to the diary? For instance, the person replacing Rumsfeld also said the U.S. needs to stay there for a long time even though we're losing. So what if Bush's management style has been gutted? He's still president for the next two years. The new defense sec'y is just as likely to be pushing for a war in Iran as the last defense sec'y only Gates will be perceived as having the "credibility" that Rumsfeld lacked.
Pointing out the bad voting records of Democrats is not the same as "round up half our team and shoot them in the head."
Enthusiasm about being on the "cusp of a new era" is terrific, but don't let it lead to your hyperbole running away with you.
by Carnacki on Wed Dec 06, 2006 at 11:50:53 PM PDT
i appreciate your comment. we achieve these thing through party discipline and leadership. I fail to see how labeling our own as "torturecrats" gets us anything other than disunity and less power.
by the way, my insults aren't juvenile, they're simply pointed.
by SeanF on Wed Dec 06, 2006 at 11:56:29 PM PDT
That's a better response than your earlier ones. I don't agree with it. I think I made my view on it clear. I was just happy the vast majority of Democrats voted against torture. But I really had to wonder at your responses because I hadn't seen you throwing around insults like that when disagreeing with people in the past.
by Carnacki on Thu Dec 07, 2006 at 12:00:37 AM PDT
let me be rumsfeldian for a moment, if you aren't getting a few troll ratings here and there, you aren't doing your job! (that's a joke)
although i don't always agree with you, i think you make your points effectively. you tilt more idealist, i tilt more pragmatic. oh, and you write diaries that make the rec list.
by SeanF on Thu Dec 07, 2006 at 01:12:02 AM PDT
remains to be seen.
When I actually see us out of Iraq; when I see the Bush cartel at the very least, investigated for their crimes and brough to justice; when I see that the Congress is acting in the interest of working people instead of doing the bidding of the corporations; when see the Congress repeal the MCA and legislate against rather than for torture; the I will belive that we are entering a new era.
Debbie Stabenow, my Senator was one of thaose who voted for torture and against habeas corpus. Up to that point I contributed to her campaign. After that vote, I ceased campaigning for her and did noit vore for her. Nor will I ever vote for anyone who votes aginst the constitution and basic human rights.
If that makes me an idiot, so be it. I would much rather be labeled an idiot than sell my soul for political expediency.
Excess ain't rebellion. You're drinking what they're selling. - Cake
by slatsg on Thu Dec 07, 2006 at 12:01:52 AM PDT
and i'd do the same. what i wouldn't do is make lists and scheme ways to weaken the party when we may have the chance to fix even bigger problems. I kinda think 100,000 dead in Iraq is a big problem. and that's just the beginning. If we have to go through the theatrics of habeas corpus and torture, if that's the path we as a nation have to tread in order to learn these stupid lessons, ok.
I don't think we disagree. I just wanna get some horrible wounds treated now, before we address the ones that have already scabbed over.
by SeanF on Thu Dec 07, 2006 at 12:06:43 AM PDT
Let me explain the list.
Before the election, when the Blue doggies voted for MCA, a list of these folks was posted here at DK and there was a suggestion that perhaps there should be a large outpouring of outrage directed toward those who would make this country a rogue nation. Those of us who were rather chagrined by the thought of our country reverting back to pre-Magna Carta times wre instructed to "keep our powder dry" and wait until after the election to raise a huge outcry.
Well.... the election is over, and in a month the Democrats will take control of Congress. We now need to round up these doggies and let them know that we expect that they will rejoin the free world, the one in which human rights are respected, and repeal the MCA.
by slatsg on Thu Dec 07, 2006 at 12:25:39 AM PDT
Let's not get personal and name calling is not exactly in the diary rules. He is entitled to his opinion, and his diary. I agree with his low opinion of Blue Dogs, but I think this is the wrong bill to measure their allegiance to Dems or democracy. It was claimed that the torture bill was going to pass anyway and so Dems up for re-election ran for cover by voting yes on this bill. Having said that, they are certainly no one I'd like to have a beer with.
...once you're willing to say whatever it takes to win, you lose. ~~Dean
by dkmich on Thu Dec 07, 2006 at 04:51:00 AM PDT
wide narrow
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