Daily Kos

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  •  Thank you (4.00 / 5)

    As usual, you provide a new and thoughtful perspective.

    by ybruti on Sun Feb 05, 2006 at 10:07:10 AM PDT

    •  Thanks Soj (4.00 / 4)

      Thanks for the additional info, Soj. How do you link this with the story that the Danish muslims went for a tour in the Middle East with 3 extra (and extremely offensive) cartoons?

      European Tribune / The Oil Drum / EA2020

      by Jerome a Paris on Sun Feb 05, 2006 at 10:29:24 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  First thing I thought of: (4.00 / 6)

        Did they hire Rove?

        Has he a Saudi clone?

        ePluribusMedia.org Join US!

        by kfred on Sun Feb 05, 2006 at 10:48:06 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  right on (4.00 / 2)

          if only people across the Middle East could see beyond the propaganda and evil influence of the ruling family of Saudi Arabia and people here could see beyond the propaganda and evil influence of our ruling family - the Bush family and its extraordinary crime apparatus - well...maybe we ALL might have a fighting chance. we need unity among humanity first!

          i think they're attacking me cause i'm awesome. how's that??

          by missreporter on Sun Feb 05, 2006 at 12:02:01 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  The huge irony... (none / 0)

            is that Osama bin Laden's number #1 target is the Saudi regime and it's overthrow and the death of the Saudi royal family. Of course, not like he'd be any better, but at least we wouldn't be fooling ourselves what's really going on.

            Is there any evidence that countries like Syria are purposely fanning the flames to detract attention away from their own repressive regimes? That's what the US is claiming (and reallly, it wouldn't surprise me if it were true-- of course they will be careful not to implicate the Saudis).

            One of the things that really makes me mad is that the Saudi's continue to fund these harsh religious schools around the world (mostly in Pakistan) that helped create soldiers for al Qaeda, the Taliban, etc. and we don't seem to be doing a damn thing about it.

            "[Republicans] swapped principle for power. They ended up with neither. They deserved to lose." --Alan Greenspan

            by lanshark on Sun Feb 05, 2006 at 02:27:44 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

        •  Getting France in on this... (none / 0)

          so that they will be happy to join the next coalition.

          How did the French paper(s) decide to republish the cartoons?

          by trykindness on Sun Feb 05, 2006 at 01:17:14 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

      •  In the context you so well provide, (4.00 / 6)

        this becomes an entirely different story, one of shameful manipulation and dishonesty.

        Still, at the forefront of all this is ancient and--in my understanding--very foolish superstition.  And even more directly at work is the spectacularly irrational idea that someone else's actions or beliefs can in any way taint or harm the honor or validity of one's own.

        These outraged Muslims who think cartoons can diminish their prophet should be locked into a room with outraged Christians who think gay marriage makes their own vows less sacred.

        Then, every time one of them claims to be the least bit different from the other, a turd should drop from his lips.  When both groups are up to their necks in shite, they can either give up, or kill themselves together in a very appropriate fashion.

        It's exactly what they're doing now anyway.

        Consider the end, and resist the beginning.

        by thalio on Sun Feb 05, 2006 at 10:59:28 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  Where are the outraged Christians (none / 1)

          rioting in the streets, burning offices of the ACLU and calling for the death of their opponents?   Let's be reality-based.

          by Hadnot on Sun Feb 05, 2006 at 12:24:40 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  THey have bombed (4.00 / 2)

            plenty of Abortion Clinics, Planned Parenthood, etc.

            by brady4747 on Sun Feb 05, 2006 at 12:28:16 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

          •  some went beyond words......... (none / 1)

            remember:
            Timothy McVeigh was not an extreme supporter of Carl Sagan <g>

            "I have sworn upon the altar of God, eternal hostility against every form of tyranny over the mind of man." --Thomas Jefferson

            by penncove on Sun Feb 05, 2006 at 12:43:43 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

          •  that some Christians would deny (3.83 / 6)

            the legal protections of marriage from gay couples (because it offends their ideas about holy laws), that they would deny the rights of women to make decisions about their pregnancies (because it offends their mystical beliefs about the nature of souls), that they would poison the minds of children with false ideas about the natural sciences (because is offends their belief in the literal truth of their holy texts)--this is more and farther reaching damage than any number of burning cars.

            Christian fanatics do more than enough harm to warrant the comparison to Muslim fanatics.  And they're already running our government.

            Consider the end, and resist the beginning.

            by thalio on Sun Feb 05, 2006 at 01:26:22 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

      •  hmmm (4.00 / 18)

        I read the link and even went over to Sullivan's blog.  It seems that the fake cartoons were distributed or propagandized in the latter half of January, when this controversy was already in full tilt.

        I'm curious to see who finances this very small group which does not even represent the majority of Muslims in Denmark.

        Pax

        Night and day you can find me Flogging the Simian

        by Soj on Sun Feb 05, 2006 at 11:00:16 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  I'm curious to see how short (4.00 / 4)

          the link is from them to Carlyle.

          (0+ / 0-), (0+ / 0-), it's off to kos I go...

          by doorguy on Sun Feb 05, 2006 at 11:18:34 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

        •  hmmm back at ya! (none / 1)

          The controversy has really surfaced (beyond local news) in the past week or so, so it may still be relevant.

          But we have more questions than answers at this point.

          European Tribune / The Oil Drum / EA2020

          by Jerome a Paris on Sun Feb 05, 2006 at 11:19:22 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  To win the frame (4.00 / 2)

            don't we need a call
            to stop violence.
            stop the promotion of hate.

            I see this in a crazy way, as another
            attack on the media, by the right.
            The hardliners here.
            The hardliners in Saudi Arabia.

            And they are going to be busy attacking the NYT regarding the NSA spying program.

            Overthrow the Government ~Vote~

            by missliberties on Sun Feb 05, 2006 at 11:25:35 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  missliberties, if you watch cspan video (none / 1)

              of World Wide Threat Assessment hearing, Sen Pat Roberts, Chair of the Intelligence Committee, begins the meeting thusly:

              Senate Intelligence Committee Annual Hearing
              Pat Roberts cracks gavel, declares, "That is a signal for members of the fourth estate to return to their rightful place, wherever that may be."

              The young stepford aide behind him, who had a dazed, when will it be over look on his face, perks up, sits up, grinning.  Like he knew the line but didn't think he'd get to hear it.  Triumph, was how it looked to me.

              As I've said a few times in comments and it never seems to connect, this NSA story is a gift that I think the adminstration gave itself.  The footage of the crazy Muslims is icing on the cake.  

              Karen Hughes, you go girl!

              "Yes dear. Conspiracy theories really do come true." (tuck, tuck)

              by tribalecho on Sun Feb 05, 2006 at 11:56:38 AM PDT

              [ Parent ]

        •  YOUR SOURCE IS A SATIRICAL SITE! (4.00 / 7)

          You base this entire theory on an explanation from one blog.  Here's the latest entry on that blog:

          Sooner or later someone is going to ask exactly what they are. Rather than change the subject at that time, I would rather take the initiative now and put pressure on the US. Therefore I would change my recommendation from my previous Memo. Rather than go after Belgium, I propose that we put them on "hold", and instead "suddenly discover" the blasphemous "South Park" "Super Best Friends" episode. Can I have Your Majesty's approval for this course of action?

          Attached is a shot from South Park.

          Don't you feel the need to point out that you're presenting a source as sincere when in fact it's satire?  Or did you just not understand the satire?

          Sheesh!

          The revolution will not be televised, but we'll analyze it to death at The Next Hurrah.

          by DHinMI on Sun Feb 05, 2006 at 12:15:17 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  Bush Creates Cabinet Position for Scandals (none / 1)

            It takes a website to explain it!

            The revolution will not be televised, but we'll analyze it to death at The Next Hurrah.

            by DHinMI on Sun Feb 05, 2006 at 12:28:58 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  You're brilliant (none / 0)

              And this blog has descended into absurdity.

              When the camel stumbles, the knives come out. (Arab proverb)

              by Ptah the Great on Sun Feb 05, 2006 at 12:34:17 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  I'm Not Brilliant (none / 0)

                I simply followed the link, and it's obvious the site is satire.  Anyone could have done so.

                And I followed the link because this diarist often makes unsupportable interpretations of data and text and quite often uses extremely dubious sources.  But this case has to be one of the worst I've seen at Daily Kos.

                Anyone who has recommended this diary should, in my opinion, unrecommend.  This is pure speculation presented as fact, and it makes us look like a bunch of rubes for elevating dishonest stuff like this to the top of the recommended list.

                To me, duplicitious (or maybe just grossly inept?) use of sources like this is almost as bad as outright plagarism, and it shouldn't have a place at Daily Kos.

                The revolution will not be televised, but we'll analyze it to death at The Next Hurrah.

                by DHinMI on Sun Feb 05, 2006 at 12:40:27 PM PDT

                [ Parent ]

                •  i totally agree (none / 0)

                  details such as "running up to 4 articles per day condemning the Danish cartoons" come from a fake memo from the Saudi press secretary to the king.

                  Even all the information about depictions of Mohammed across the world come from the same post on Religious Policeman.

                  i think they're attacking me cause i'm awesome. how's that??

                  by missreporter on Sun Feb 05, 2006 at 01:13:40 PM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

                  •  Now it's relevant (none / 0)

                    that those two things -- the number of articles in the government-controlled press, and the stuff about other depictions of Mohammed -- can be factually verified, and the fact that they appear in the context of satire only slightly undermines them.

                    This is going to sound totally lame, but just cause it's satire doesn't mean it's wrong.  It means it's unverified, and it means there's been no serious argument made that would justify serious belief.

                    There's enough in there to legitimately pique casual interest.  That bit of satire suggests an interesting way of arranging the puzzle pieces.  It is true?  That takes a totally different kind of investigation.

                    by texas dem on Sun Feb 05, 2006 at 01:27:36 PM PDT

                    [ Parent ]

                    •  Sure, Absolutely True (none / 0)

                      The theory is plausible.  The satire contains some resemblance to what we might regard as a possible truth.  But in this diary the satire isn't presented as a frutiful direction for speculation, it's presented as a evidence.  As such, it's either really damn stupid, or a profound breech in intellectual honesty.

                      The revolution will not be televised, but we'll analyze it to death at The Next Hurrah.

                      by DHinMI on Sun Feb 05, 2006 at 01:33:59 PM PDT

                      [ Parent ]

                      •  Yeah, as I said a little bit downthread (none / 0)

                        in a kindof out-of-the-way location, Soj should definitely have labelled all of this as interesting speculation.  A reread of his post shows that he definitely did not.  That sucks.  And it is bad for dKos standards, such as they are.

                        As I said down below, you're right here.

                        I'd go for the "really damn stupid" option, but I have no real familiarity with Soj's posting history, and you said upthread that you do.  Maybe it was just willfully leaving out the fact that it's satire so that the claim and the diary become more powerful.

                        Anyway, good on ya for catching it.  I'm reading downthread now to see what everyone else is saying.

                        by texas dem on Sun Feb 05, 2006 at 01:48:15 PM PDT

                        [ Parent ]

                    •  I would be interested (none / 0)

                      in seeing some other source material that the satire was based on, something that discusses Saudi Arabia launching a press offensive. Fine, I accept it, in fact I wholeheartedly believe that is probably the case, but show me the evidence. This source is hardly evidence, hence it renders the diary worthless.

                      i think they're attacking me cause i'm awesome. how's that??

                      by missreporter on Sun Feb 05, 2006 at 01:38:31 PM PDT

                      [ Parent ]

                    •  The other issue with me is (none / 0)

                      that Soj wrote the diary in a way so that, I thought at least, it appeared she perfomed much of the research, like where depictions of Mohammed appear. I know I am not alone because others have said things like "great research," etc.

                      Very troubling, because Soj is a great writer and I value her perspective, but unfortunately this casts a bad light now on all her previous writing. I never raised my eyebrows about it before but apparently DH inMI has.

                      i think they're attacking me cause i'm awesome. how's that??

                      by missreporter on Sun Feb 05, 2006 at 01:47:40 PM PDT

                      [ Parent ]

                    •  let me also add (none / 0)

                      that i don't know what is going on. maybe Soj thought it was real - I admit I have been easily fooled before and satire can be tricky. And for all I know Soj could have written the satirical piece and done all the research it contains.

                      I just don't know.

                      i think they're attacking me cause i'm awesome. how's that??

                      by missreporter on Sun Feb 05, 2006 at 01:49:58 PM PDT

                      [ Parent ]

                •  Um, you ought to read a little futher... (4.00 / 4)

                  This article is clearly not satire, but analysis.

                  If you read some of the other articles, you'll see that the "memos" (as well as the Muslim Offense Level, still at Condition Orange: Highly Offended) are satire, but other posts, describing the timeline of the Saudi reaction, describe the events in a non-satirical fashion.

                  by NY Expat on Sun Feb 05, 2006 at 01:47:25 PM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

          •  Hm. Yeah, you win. (none / 0)

            Satire can still present the semi-serious idea that the Saudis created this story for their own purposes.  But it offers absolutely no evidence for that, and Soj's writing treats it as if it does.

            The guy in me who can't figure out what drives the press, and who had already wondered about the odd fact that the cartoons were published months ago, really wants to believe this story.  But Soj's writing should at least have labelled itself as speculative.

            by texas dem on Sun Feb 05, 2006 at 01:18:12 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

          •  skepticism rocks and... (none / 0)

            I have to admit, this is funny. If I had to guess I would say the Religious Policemen is inspired by Ali G.  You gotta hand it to him today--his "I am a Saudi" satire made it to #1 on the recommended list on the left's #1 blog site.  

            I will say it here even if DHinMI won't:

            If your name is on that recommended list, let me be the first to snark: YOU ARE SO LAME!  

            by markymarx on Sun Feb 05, 2006 at 01:40:45 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

          •  Religious Policeman is not really satire, (4.00 / 3)

            it is more a fraud to whip up hatred about the "islamofascists" by a blogger who poses as a Saudi but - according to real Saudi bloggers - doesn't even know Arabic and has to rely on MEMRI for his news about Saudi Arabia.  He also posts as himself and as "Sol Rosenblum" at LGF.

            This link and the comments attached to it give details.

            He is probably some Cheeto stained lizard minion blogging in his mom's basement, and hysterical with laughter over how easy it is whip up those so-called liberal, progressive "Moonbats at DKos" into a frenzy over the Islamofascists.

            I cannot believe this has been diaried as a true story.  

            by Diane on Sun Feb 05, 2006 at 03:44:55 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

          •  Okay DH (4.00 / 5)

            I did some poking around, here's what I've come up with.

            The number of people killed in Hajj pilgrimages checks out, as this Times Online UK article reveals, Hundreds die in crush at haj stoning ceremony.

            Now, the demand for apology also urges peaceful protest:

            OIC Demands Unqualified Danish Apology, JEDDAH, 29 January 2006
            [...]
            "There are no two opinions about respecting freedom of expression... Muslims have no problem in accepting the right of the electronic and print media to exercise their freedoms without any let or hindrance," Ihsanoglu said.

            "Muslims strongly support exercising freedom of conscience as one of the principles that is completely in consonance with the Western concept of freedom of expression. However, it has to be exercised by taking into account respect for the values of those with whom one may disagree. Superimposing the right to revile other religions and prophets goes against the essence of freedom of expression, as no democracy, legal or political system allows the preaching of hate and insult for the sacred values and symbols of others."

            The OIC chief appealed to Muslims to stay calm. "We ask members of the Islamic nation to express their opinions in a civilized and peaceful manner and not to fall into mistakes that are unworthy of the Prophet (pbuh)," he added.

            However, Arab News editors have stoked the fires of passion and obliquely threatened violence against Danish troops in Iraq:

            For the editors of Saudi Arabia's Arab News Juste's statement wasn't enough. The paper's lead editorial today argues that his apology "is unlikely to take the sting out of the situation or ease the hurt and resentment that millions of Muslims feel." Arab News adds: "The depictions of the Prophet as a terrorist were clearly intended to offend. How could they do otherwise?...There are many things which are legal, but that does not make them right. Worse, [Juste] says he still does not regret publishing the cartoons. Does he not regret doing something that has done immense damage to Danish-Muslim relations?...That has probably put Danish troops in Iraq at unique risk from Al-Qaeda?"
            Source: SF Gate's rundown of the "cartoon controversy"

            A current sample of "cartoon cointroversy" sentiment found on the pages of Arab News:

            Home Page, Arab News: Sunday, 5, February, 2006 (06, Muharram, 1427)

            Hate Speech in the Guise of Freedom of Expression
            Dr. Khaled Batarfi, kbatarfi@al-madina.com
            "Freedom of expression is important, but so is respect for other people." This was the opinion of Danish Vice Prime Minister Bendt Bendtsen in an interview with daily Jyllands-Posten about the paper's...  

            Republishing Cartoons Is Stupid and Offensive
            Rasheed Abou-Alsamh, Arab News
            The republication of the cartoons that depict Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him) in an offensive manner this week by several European newspapers, out of so-called solidarity with the Danish paper...  

            `Something Is Rotten in the State of Denmark'
            Tarek Mishkhas, Arab News
            Danish ministers say the government can't condemn the cartoons a daily published mocking the Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him), and that freedom of speech is guaranteed for all and that freedom...

            And lastly, an Advanced search of Arab News, using "cartoon" as query, from 26 Dec 2005 to 5 Feb 2006 yields the following results:

            World
            Sunday, 5, February, 2006    
            Abbas, Hamas Agree to Convene Parliament
            Agencies

            World
            Sunday, 5, February, 2006    
            Merkel Likens Ahmadinejad to Adolf Hitler
            Agencies

            Opinion
            Sunday, 5, February, 2006    
            `Something Is Rotten in the State of Denmark'
            Tarek Mishkhas, Arab News

            Opinion
            Sunday, 5, February, 2006    
            Malaysia: Coexistence of Islam and Secularism
            Mary Dejevsky, The Independent

            Opinion
            Sunday, 5, February, 2006    
            Republishing Cartoons Is Stupid and Offensive
            Rasheed Abou-Alsamh, Arab News

            World
            Sunday, 5, February, 2006    
            Embassies Torched in Damascus
            Agencies

            Review
            Saturday, 4, February, 2006    
            Ali Farzat Drawings Still Light the Way
            Lulwa Shalhoub | Arab News

            Kingdom
            Saturday, 4, February, 2006    
            Lawyers Vow Legal Action in Cartoons Row
            P.K. Abdul Ghafour & Abdul Maqsood Mirza, Arab News

            Kingdom
            Saturday, 4, February, 2006    
            `Cartoons Infused Muslims With a Spirit of Defiance'
            Arab News

            Features
            Friday, 3, February, 2006    
            Something Out of Danish Character
            Muhammad M. Al-Harbi, harbimmm@gmail.com

            Opinion
            Friday, 3, February, 2006    
            The Power of the Muslim and Arab Worlds
            Ray Hanania, Arab News

            World
            Friday, 3, February, 2006    
            More Papers Reprint Cartoons
            Agencies

            Kingdom
            Friday, 3, February, 2006    
            SADAFCO Says It Has No Danish Connection
            K.S. Ramkumar, Arab News

            World
            Friday, 3, February, 2006    
            Palestinians Protest Offensive Cartoons
            Agencies

            Kingdom
            Thursday, 2, February, 2006    
            Danish Imam: Controversy Opens Important Debate
            Hasan Hatrash, Arab News

            Kingdom
            Thursday, 2, February, 2006    
            Winner in Danish Boycott: Newspapers
            Hasan Hatrash, Arab News

            Kingdom
            Thursday, 2, February, 2006    
            Naif Raps West on N-Policy
            P.K. Abdul Ghafour, Arab News

            World
            Thursday, 2, February, 2006    
            French and German Papers Reprint Danish Cartoons
            Tom Heneghan, Reuters

            Opinion
            Wednesday, 1, February, 2006    
            Muslims Deserve the Same Respect as Christians or Jews
            Edgar M. Bronfman, Arab News

            Kingdom
            Wednesday, 1, February, 2006    
            Boycott Not by Government, Says Saud
            Raid Qusti, Arab News

            I think Soj's read on this (assuming he researched claims made by the blog in question)  holds up pretty well. At any rate, I think it's abundantly clear that these drawings are being used for maximum benefit by Saudi Arabia and other highly biased organizations and governments around the world.

            Time flies, whether you're having fun or not.

            by Kimberley on Sun Feb 05, 2006 at 03:54:35 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

      •  Now it makes much better sense. (none / 0)

        The dawn begins to break.

        The goad was the Saudis.

        Thank you Soj!!!!!  Thank you Jerome!!!

        Today, 8/19/08, 4144 Americans, and untold Iraqis are dead, tens of thousands more maimed. Bush lied, how soon before your family pays the price for that?

        by boilerman10 on Sun Feb 05, 2006 at 02:08:39 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

    •  One correction (none / 0)

      The Hajj can only be performed once a year--it is based on the lunar calendar...
      There are other rituals that can be performed all year round, but they are not Hajj.

      Fla will be blue...

      by skywalker on Sun Feb 05, 2006 at 03:01:44 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

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