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If it's important to understand why fundies support Bush, it's presumably so that we can have a dialogue with either them or those who might be influenced by them. I think that we then need to be careful not to project an unintelligence or hypocrisy onto them as a group, since that would undermine the purpose of even discussing this.
I imagine that a lot of us haven't spent time really talking about things with fundies. I never would have were it not for an odd circumstance that led me to live with a home-schooling, redneck family in the Bible belt. I'm not even a practising or believing Christian, even though I value the lessons of the gospels.
I found the family that I stayed with to be very well educated, well-intentioned, and the least hypocritical of anyone I've known. And I disagree with just about every political opinion they have, and regard their belief in the coming apocolypse to be dangerous to everyone.
If fundies were as stupid and as obviously hypocritical as a lot of people here think they are, our work would be much easier than it's been.
by think blue on Thu Apr 20, 2006 at 05:46:07 PM PDT
One of my theories is that the same people who are attracted to strict, fundamentalists religions are those who are attracted to strict, conservative politics. Not a stretch, really...maybe they're just individuals who like order and sameness. People who are good "joiners"....thats why I think the "once a week church goers" trend republican. Come on, liberals just aren't good at buying into orthodoxy.
by tjb22 on Thu Apr 20, 2006 at 05:55:34 PM PDT
[ Parent ]
Or people who are different.
If the people lead, the leaders will follow.
by Mz Kleen on Thu Apr 20, 2006 at 06:32:47 PM PDT
a "reactionary conservative" someone who is adverse to change as well? I sometimes think we miss the forest for the trees or the trees for the forrest or whatever...should we be really surprised that those attracted to authoritarian religion are also attracted to those forms of government?
by tjb22 on Thu Apr 20, 2006 at 06:37:08 PM PDT
For all of their confidence in being "saved," fundies are paradoxically afraid of change or difference, of the unknown and the spontaneous. It's why Bush appeals to them so much - he offers a simplistic certainty and an image of power that no Democrat ever will.
But since their influence is so destructive, even while they're just a minority, I think that any approach that addresses them not as idiots or hypocrites but as people who are afraid, could be worth trying.
by think blue on Thu Apr 20, 2006 at 07:15:40 PM PDT
I think you are right. So much so, that you inspired me to write a diary on this myself.
Thanks.
Social advance depends as much upon the process through which it is secured as upon the result itself. --Jane Addams
by shock on Thu Apr 20, 2006 at 11:52:16 PM PDT
And it's not about picking and choosing texts - that suggests choices that are conscious and rational. It's about the psychology of wanting to submit to authority. On a political and personal level, liberals tend to be more tolerant of uncertainty and diversity. How's that for a generalization?
by think blue on Thu Apr 20, 2006 at 06:47:05 PM PDT
is well-known to many here, and if you haven't looked into it, I recommend taking a look at http://www.chelseagreen.com/... where you will find a discussion of the connection between personality, family, and politics.
by uffdalib on Thu Apr 20, 2006 at 07:19:08 PM PDT
But I do not trust anyone who uses faith as a way to control others, while picking and choosing from their holy book the verses which best fit them at any given time. They are not to be seen as ignorant fools, no. In my opinion, however, they are dangerous and entirely too influential in this country.
Your point is a good one, because painting with too broad a brush in most situations is detrimental to honest discussion. But a great majority of Fundamentalists will never think twice about judgement if you (collectively speaking) are not "saved", and will likely always see you as being a lost soul who is on the path to an eternity in hell. So how can you ever really have an open conversation, when they see themselves as always in the right? (no pun intended)
"You must be the change you wish to see in the world." - Gandhi
by missLotus on Thu Apr 20, 2006 at 06:09:05 PM PDT
I don't expect that I changed any of the family's core beliefs, but I think I showed some of them that their caricatures of us were uninformed, and misplaced. And that's certainly what they taught me about them.
I saw so many mistakes in Kerry's campaign from their point of view. And the solution was so easy, requiring no compromise in position. I think that's where a lot of Democratic political strategy goes wrong. Consultants think that we need to change the content of our policies when we would gain so much ground if we changed the language of them and the strategy of our campaigns.
by think blue on Thu Apr 20, 2006 at 06:56:07 PM PDT
because I know it is wrong to insult people and we are better off trying to persuade rather than alienate.
but there is an unthinking ignorance that is all but indistinguiable from stupidity when someone comes along and tries to present them with the truth.
I have known my share of fundies, probably a lot more than most of the liberals on this blog, and some of them are very lovely and loving people who inspired me to love them as well.
But I will not back down from calling them hypocritical when:
and yet they persist in the LIE that the Republican party is the God's Own Party and more in line with the teachings of Jesus Christ. That is hypocritical and there are no two ways around it. I'm sure the people you stayed with were decent people, but if they buy that Christians must vote Republican line they are hypocrites. Period.
Sorry if the truth hurts.
Politics is like driving. To go backward, put it in R. To go forward, put it in D. 76 days until the '08 elections. Let's paint the country BLUE!
by TrueBlueMajority on Thu Apr 20, 2006 at 07:04:04 PM PDT
The extreme fundies that I know are truly, genuinely anti-abortion. They believe that millions of babies have been killed because our government allows it. I never heard them refer to Romans, but it was internally consistent for them to support Reagan and Bush II, and not Clinton. And yet, they paid taxes, and obeyed the laws, which may be their version of Romans.
They cared for the hungry and sick, but thought that it ought to be done on the basis of the community and not outsourced to the government. The latter was incomprehensible to them. I think a lot of our inability to understand each other has to do with the fact that they never lived in or around cities and have no idea how different the social problems are there, just like those of us who are coastal have no idea how little sense a lot of policies make in rural areas.
For everything that we find hypocritical in their lives, they find hypocritical in ours.
But scary they were. When Bush I referred to his ideal of world peace in his convention nomination speech, the mother said straight away "There won't be world peace. The apocalypse is coming." And in that moment, I saw how far away from government I hoped these people would stay.
by think blue on Thu Apr 20, 2006 at 07:40:18 PM PDT
because GOD allows it. Almost half of fertilized eggs are never born--they don't implant in the uterine wall, or they do implant but then abort spontaneously, and this doesn't even count all of the instances that ordinary people think of as miscarriage, when something goes wrong with the pregnancy after the woman knows she is pregnant.
Half. I know biology is not usually their strong suit but if they are that concerned about all the fertilized eggs that they think deserve to be born, they should take it up with the intelligent designer of the human reproductive system.
by TrueBlueMajority on Thu Apr 20, 2006 at 08:48:09 PM PDT
and probably would be if I engaged with it more. But if you accept their premises to begin with, their thinking isn't that indefensible.
What you say about spontaneous abortions is true, but would you also say that the fact that each person dies negates the moral crime of murder? Their system of belief emphasizes the primacy and consequences of free will. It's a system that is manipulated to awful ends by politicians, but the people whom I knew genuinely tried to follow its precepts. And I could see for myself that it has some tangible benefits along with many inadequacies.
I think that a good part of the problem isn't their reasoning but the fact that we start from a very different set of premises. I personally don't think that abstract logic will be the most effective way to adress these differences. Imo, we need a combination of addressing their fears and appealing to their experiences and observations of other people.
It's been a really interesting diary. Thanks.
by think blue on Thu Apr 20, 2006 at 09:45:08 PM PDT
with "killing babies" as it does exerting control over women. Fundamentalists, and some other men, see women's freedom as a threat--they have to compete with us instead of being able to simply boss us around and exploit us for their own gain.
The truth that I think these kind of men already know, buried deep within, is that all women are truly free, just as they are--it's simply that many of us (especially women of a conservative bent) don't realize that at any time we can choose to demand the freedom that is rightfully ours--notice how many women are of the mindset that they have to "ask" men to "give" them their rights.
If we truly wanted to do it, we could quickly put an end to many forms of sexism in this country if we simply started teaching women that they are free. If, for example, even a modest percentage of women in this country decided to go on strike for a few days demanding pay equality, the problem would be solved very quickly--simply because of the financial pain it would cause businesses.
Stuff like that is why the right likes to keep Christians, but most especially women, brainwashed.
The Poor Folks Survival Guide
by tonyahky on Fri Apr 21, 2006 at 05:25:05 AM PDT
is a key part of my personal ministry.
I try to persuade men that they are free too, because they are enslaved in different ways and to different things.
but trying to raise the self-respect of women and girls generally is one of the most important social justice actions anyone can take.
by TrueBlueMajority on Fri Apr 21, 2006 at 07:34:26 AM PDT
As I posted above, I think this has been a really interesting and productive thread, so much so that I posted a diary about it here on which I would really appreciate comments from people with various perspectives on this topic, especially others who found this particular thread interesting. Thanks.
by shock on Thu Apr 20, 2006 at 11:56:54 PM PDT
wide narrow
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